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UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT, 2019-ONGOING
UML 17
Thel Sar, Oral History #19.02
INFORMANT/NARRATOR: THEL SAR (TS)
INTERVIEWER: SUE J. KIM (SK)
DATE: APRIL 18, 2019
SPEAKER
DETAILS
TS:
I had involved a lot of work... in the past.
SK:
Oh, okay. Great. Okay. All right. So, this is Sue Kim, and I am codirector for the Center for Asian American Studies, and Project
Director for the Southeast Asia Digital Archive. Today is
Thursday, April 18th, 2019, and I am here with Mr. Thel Sar, at
UMass Lowell. We're in the College of Fine Arts, Humanities, and
Social Sciences, 820 Broadway Street in Lowell, Massachusetts.
So, thank you so much for agreeing to share your experiences with
us.
TS:
Thank you for letting me being part of it.
SK:
So, I thought we would just start... could you tell us about where
you were born, and where you grew up? We can start there.
TS:
Yeah, I can be briefed with that. So I was born in Cambodia.
SK:
What year?
TS:
In the late 1960s, and I lived in Cambodia through the Holocaust,
Khmer Rouge. And then I, you know, when the Vietnam invaded
Cambodian, I was left Cambodia to come to America. So, I lived
through, and I was one of the few survivors in my family. And on
October 1981, my aunt brought me to America, uh, my
grandmother. And so I had lived with my grandmother. First place
I lived was in Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, I lived there briefly.
And then I went to Virginia; Arlington, Virginia. Went to high
school there. And after high school, I went to college in
Swannanoa, North Carolina.
SK:
Where did you go into... where did you go in North Carolina?
TS:
I went to a college called Warren Wilson College, which is located
near Asheville, North Carolina.
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SK:
What did you major in?
TS:
My major was in the General Education, specializing in helping
Southeast Asian, mainly the Cambodians.
SK:
Oh, that's fantastic!
TS:
Yeah. So when I graduated from college, I went back to Virginia.
In those times, in Lowell there was influx of Southeast Asians,
mainly the Cambodian immigrants came to Lowell, Ma. And with
the influx, there's a lot of crime. There's shortage of a
professionals. So I was pretty much recruited to come up here, and
to work with Southeast Asian youths.
SK:
So you... where were you at the time? Well-
TS:
After I graduated from Warren Wilson College, I went back to
Arlington, Virginia. And lived there... Stayed there very briefly
then in September, 1991 I came up here to Lowell, MA.
SK:
From Arlington?
TS:
Yeah, from Arlington, Virginia. I was interviewed for a job with
the CMAA of Greater Lowell as a youth counselor. My job
mainly, trying to create activities for youths because back in those
days we didn't have much activities for Southeast Asian youths, so
they mainly hung out with groups, and were alleged to been called
gangs. So the DA... there's a lot of murders, a lot of violence. So
they wanted to create some fun activities for the kid. So my job
was to bring them together, and come up with some activities...
SK:
Oh, I see. I didn't know that you were youth counselor at CMAA.
So, that was from about-
TS:
September 1991 until July 1992, when I went on to work for the
Department of Youth Services for the State of Massachusetts. I
worked there for about nine months.
SK:
Where does... for the record, in the '90s, where did the Department
of Youth Services, where did it fit? Was it related to DSS or-
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TS:
No, the department has its own separate department. It's a
department of corrections, pretty much. It's a Social... Department
of Correction for kids under the age of Eighteen, when they...
committed crimes, they'd go to the DYS instead of the adult
facilities.
SK:
And how did you get recruited into-
TS:
So I... so we... there was shortage of professionals, and [crosstalk
00:04:49] and so, when I was working for CMAA, I went to court
lot to watch trial at the courthouse, and with my degree, the
department of DYS wanted me. In addition, because of my
language skills, I speak Khmer, and I can write and read... fluently.
So I was a good candidate for the job.
SK:
And who's... before you started working for DYS, when you were
still with CMAA, whose trials generally? Was it the kids you were
working with? The family members?
TS:
Yes, it's... kids that I had worked with in the past. And then some
of the... so they needed some kinds of representation from the
community at the courthouse. And I was sent there to be a liaison,
so if people showed up at the trial, they could get me helped
them... translated to them so they could understand the processes.
So my job is to make sure that people who... well, the victims, the
friends, and families, they have good knowledge of what went on.
SK:
So, since you were involved with that, then you started working
with Department of Youth Services, and so what were your duties?
Or what was your position?
TS:
Well, a couple of times when I was with CMAA, when they ran
into problems with language, they asked me to help. So I would go
to juvenile detentions and helped in translation. So that was... they
said, "Look, we really needed you to..." so that's how I started, the
interview, and got position.
SK:
So, the position then was-
TS:
A caseworker.
SK:
Caseworker? Right. I see. And so, what was your job like then?
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TS:
Well it's... I'm from very conservative family. I was like, my job
was to... So I mainly worked with the Cambodian youths and the
parents. When youths committed crimes, they adjudicated them.
And then they sent by the court to the Department of Youth
Services; my job was to investigate their backgrounds, and also
looking into ways to help them... you can't lock them up for life, so
you tried to help them to assimilate back to the community when
they finished their sentences. And so my job was to make sure that
they... when they lived in the community, they followed the
conditions sat by court and the department.
SK:
So this is... so were you a probation officer at this point?
TS:
No, not yet. Not yet. My probation officer job..when I was still
working DYS, you also had to go to court as well. Because when
kids were arrested for serious crime and appeared in court they
would be sent to DYS detentions; I went court to get information
of their background and to report to the department. Sometimes,
court ordered treatments. And some time just to be there to write
down of new court dates or new status of the cases. So I was there
as a liaison from DYS, and that's how I was at the courthouse. The
court was also did not have Southeast Asian worker as well. I was
recruited to go into the position as well.
SK:
In the '90s, what were the biggest problems or issues that you saw
coming up, either on the side of the law enforcement or, or on the
side of the families, or the community members?
TS:
I think; it was discrimination. This community was not prepared to
receive such large group of people. And this community had a long
history of discrimination. People in the community did not treat the
new comes with welcome but hostile. There was lack of services.
There was very little help, and those newcomers knew nothing. So
we had to work hard to help them understanding the systems. We
had to confront many wrong doers that it was not right for them to
treat people unlawfully.
TS:
There was lack of facilities such as schools and playgrounds.
Everything they did was against the law. Until a group of people
say to them, "Look, we are not stupid. We're not dumb. We know
that this is illegal, so you have to treat us right do the right things".
And the leaders in the community started to do more to help the
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newcomers. In one situation, we had to take the city to court in
order to force them to integrated kids in schools and build more
schools. They agreed to build new facilities to accommodate new
students and hired people to represent the population.
TS:
And the kids, they had a lot of free times in their hands. Schools
did not provide good services. Many kids skipped schools and
hung out on the streets. They started label those kids as gangs and
criminals. And I refused to label them... I've been working here for
so many years. I refused to recognize that they're gangs and all
that.
SK:
So court cases goals were to fight racism and discrimination.
TS:
Yeah.
SK:
What were some of those instances?
TS:
Southeast Asian kids were called by bad names and they pushed
them around for no good reasons-
SK:
By other students or?
TS:
By white kids and Hispanic kids. These Southeast Asian kids took
pride in their cultures; they took pride in themselves they were
tough kid too because they had gone through so much in their
lives, in the camp (prison like). So their mentality is like, "No, I'm
not going to take this, and I'm going fight back". And the police
was not helpful, the kids "I'm going to take control of this place,
not you", and then that's how gang started.
SK:
That's a good. How would you describe the relationship between
the police and particularly the youth, Cambodian youth at this
time? In the '90s.
TS:
I think, again, the police didn't have good relationship with
Southeast Asian youths. The police said, "I'm going to step on you,
I know you", and they did it as far as they could to violate those
kids right. There was no hope; “If I did these things, maybe I can
suppress this people, and there's nothing going to happen". I did
not think this was right ways to treatment our youths. I'm getting
very emotional because I think thatPage 5 of 23
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SK:
Let me get some…
TS:
It's okay.
SK:
Very good.
TS:
So we came here to live. We were survivors from Cambodia. We
were legal immigrants. We did not buy our way here. The ways
they treated us was not fair. We knew that. We refused to take
abuse. We came together and said, "Look, we're not going to take
this". But we do this systematically and legally. We had enough
educated people to work with. We needed to change from inside,
outside, and all around. We needed to be humble enough to make
changes. So, my role with the DYS and all, I pulled kids in and
say, "Look, to give respect and get respect, you got to do
something to make sure that they don't... you don't want them to
look down at you, you'll need to do something meaningful".
SK:
Yes. Did you work as... When you were with the DYS
caseworkers, did you work a lot with the attorneys?
TS:
Not as many, but I worked with a lot of therapists and [crosstalk
00:14:29] but again, I wore many hats. So I was always very
active, even though I worked with DYS, I opened Khmer Sunday
School; I coached soccer, and did a lot of other stuffs. We knew it
was a struggle.
SK:
You mentioned Khmer Sunday school. What, what-
TS:
So when first I came here, a lot of kids did not grown up in
Cambodia. However, they wanted to learn Khmer language and
culture. So I started Khmer Sunday School Program by myself.
Even though I wasn't a Khmer teacher, I was able to teach them,
and then recruited teachers. We became a big program, hundreds
of kids attended.
SK:
Where was this building?
TS:
We had to use the old temple in North Chelmsford. We had many
volunteers, and we became very successful.
SK:
How long was that school?
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TS:
10 years.
SK:
And also you were... because you were coaching, what-
TS:
I had coached for a few years. I coached soccer and basketball.
SK:
Was it through an organization or, just…?
TS:
Lowell Youth Soccer and highlander youth basketball.
SK:
So, this... you were a caseworker in maybe '92 to '93 or something?
TS:
Yeah. '92 to '93.
SK:
And then in ‘93 became a [crosstalk 00:16:48]
TS:
Probation officer. March 1st, 1993.
SK:
So how did that happen? I mean, [crosstalk 00:16:54]
TS:
I'd been working with a lot of people, and one day someone in the
Probation Department approached me and asked me if I wanted to
work for the court, "Look, we need someone like you". And so he
encouraged me to apply, "There's a job posting, why don't you
apply?" So I applied. I was interviewed by 3 judges and was hired
two weeks later: 3/1/1993.
SK:
How did your duties change? Where... Were you doing things that
are very similar? Or did it change what you were doing?
TS:
It's almost about the same, but I didn't have to travel much. I was
in the courthouse.
SK:
Lowell District Court?
TS:
Yeah, Lowell District Court. But again like I said to you, I always
wore many hats.
SK:
So what were some other ways that you did that? Was it
individual... conversation?
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TS:
I interviewed people and helped with translation. I directed people
to the right places to get help. I helped recruit new workers. I
spoke to community.
SK:
So, when you mean by kids, you mean... Because you talked about
that you work with both; the defendants… and the victims…
TS:
Yes, I worked with defendants and victims to make sure they
understood their rights.
SK:
You're like an advocate, and a navigator for them in the
courthouse.
TS:
Yes.
SK:
One hat.
TS:
Yes, one hat.
SK:
I've spoken to some attorneys, like defense attorneys, and they
talked about like, who are not Khmer. And they've talked about
how difficult it was to communicate to sometimes the families,
right? The defendants, but also the families, but also the victims, if
there was a language issue. So, did you participate in those
process? I think the legal processes are so complicated already,
right? And so I can't imagine trying to explain all of this sort of
complicated legal stuff in two-year-old court languages.
TS:
So, my goals are to make sure every one walked out the court
house knew that they were served well.
Unknown Speaker:
Open up.
SK:
Oh, hey?
Unknown Speaker:
I just wanted you to say goodbye.
SK:
Okay.
Unknown Speaker:
I'm last one here. Hello?
TS:
Hi.
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Unknown Speaker:
I didn't want to go into...
SK:
Okay, bye!
TS:
So I think that a lot of times, a lot of attorneys did not give enough
times to Southeast Asian clients. They made up excuses because of
languages. There's always a way that they could work with people.
SK:
So, specifically working with probation, is that after a sentence has
been…
TS:
So, individual was arrested, the police job is almost done. They
documented their reports. The next morning, or the next day they
brought the individual to court, and probation took over. Probation
officers interviewed the individual and reported to judges. Cases
decided and found guilty. The individual placed on probation.
Probation Officer assigned to supervise individual. There are many
types of conditions: drug testing, GPS, and Scram and much more.
SK:
What's Scram?
TS:
Scram is a machine... breathing... alcohol testing machine. So we
can monitor it from anywhere. And GPS, just like the car, you can
see the people walking around. So that's... our job is to make sure
that... so we do all that
SK:
And when you monitor them, afterwards, is it sort of regular
checking or...
TS:
So it's different levels. Some are more severe, and some are less
severe. A couple scenarios, like assault and battery on somebody...
they probably get a split sentence. They get two years house of
correction; one year to serve, one year suspended. And the
suspended sentence is the one that they are on probation. Typical
order of probation conditions: drugs counseling, mental health
counseling and many others. And so we make sure that they do all
those things. If they failed to comply with the order then the judge,
their probation would be revoked and sent them to jail.
SK:
So you really are caseworker from the moment that they're arrested
[crosstalk 00:27:13] all the way through to the end of the
probation?
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TS:
And then we prose... at the same time if they violate the probation,
we prosecuted them. So we acting like a prosecutor as well. And
we also do a home visit. Make sure that they... yeah.
SK:
What were the... What was the... Who are the people that you were
working with most in the '90s right? It wasn't like...
TS:
I'm specializing in Southeast Asian probationers because the judge
could impose 20 different conditions, and if they did not
understand then they could not do the right things, then they could
go to jail. So I was assigned to work with them. I was successful in
helping them.
SK:
It was mostly young... Was it youth or all ages or...
TS:
So, back then it was older people.
SK:
Like, thirties, forties?
TS:
No, 20 to about 40, 50.
SK:
And what were some of the...
TS:
A lot of domestic. Gambling... not nearly enough number of drugs.
SK:
What kind of gambling? Actually, I just came out from another
interview, but the attorney…
SK:
Then how did things change like the late '90s to the 2000?
TS:
There's a lot more changes now a day. So there is less Southeast
Asian now. Now this has a lot with... still domestic. There's a good
number of domestic violence, and then it's also not as much
gambling, but not as much drugs either... it's OUI; driving under
influence, a lot of that.
SK:
So, what other kind of things sort of... like your experience, or
your working... your experiences with working with the
community, did things change? As we moved into the late '90s and
the 2000s?
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TS:
Yeah. There's... There are families who were struggling to
assimilate in the US.
SK:
What do you mean?
TS:
You had a lot people from countryside in Cambodia who were not
educated because of the service was not good... those kids dropped
out of school and committed crimes, generation after generation.
SK:
Are struggling.
TS:
Struggling and still of course. They had a lot of kids in troubles,
and their kids trouble.
SK:
So there's... there's the generation-
TS:
Generation.
SK:
I see.
TS:
And then... my son, he is doing research, so his finding is that...
over the summer, did on gang-
SK:
What is he? A student or... here, where?
TS:
He's a student at Wake Forest University.
SK:
Oh, Wake Forest? Your sweatshirt. So is he... what's his major?
TS:
He majored in psychology.
SK:
He did research?
TS:
Research on gang.
SK:
In...
TS:
Southeast Asian Gang. So he interviewed a bunch of gang
members
SK:
Around here?
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TS:
Yeah. And he interviewed with different ages.
SK:
That's fantastic!
TS:
He is the senior, and he going onto Columbia University for his
graduate school.
SK:
For graduate school?
TS:
Yeah.
SK:
Congratulations! That's wonderful. That's great. We need more
researchers on Southeast Asian American studies, but also
researchers who are Southeast Asian American for-
TS:
He's going to be... he's doing clinical psychology.
SK:
That's great. That's wonderful. What kind of things did he find?
TS:
So he saw... he found out that a lot of these kid parents were not
around. Parents disconnected with schools, and no mentor... lack of
mentoring. So those components leaded kids to struggle on theirs
owns.
SK:
Have you seen an impact of a lot of the youth services that have
arisen in Lowell in the last few decades? Like Teen BLOCK, or
UTEC, or Boys & Girls Club?
TS:
They do, they do. I think that the... I have to give them a lot of
credits, and I think they make a lot of efforts. But at the same time,
I think they are not very organized and appeared to be isolated
from each other. I have a task to do, and I'm just doing this on my
own. There is so much need. And I think... and I... So, this is
something that I see. Even UMass Lowell hasn't put a lot of effort
into it. Because I think they feel that we are incapable of doing the
job to maintain our own greater goods. So they don't give a hand.
And when you go and don’t give them a hand, they make it very...
Let me give you an example. So the changes took place in the '90.
So the leaders who were representing the community... two
decades later, 2000, this 20 years, they fired every one of those
guys. They made it a point you have to pass this process or that
process in order for you to stay employed.
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SK:
They fired, sorry, who-
TS:
Teachers. Back in the day they hired Khmer teachers to teach.
Then a lot of those teachers were fired.
And then now a day 97% of teachers and staffs in Lowell Public
School are Caucasian. I think the last time I heard them saying was
that they went to recruit diversity teachers were South Carolina;
Columbia, South Carolina… completely make nonsense.
TS:
And that's why I help find a Community Public Charter School in
Lowell, MA. I was part of that. I was a board member and
chairman for ten years. And the city was not happy with that.
SK:
What were the characteristics or what did you feel like you could
do with the Charter School that you couldn't do otherwise?
TS:
So, we brought in people representing the populations in the city,
so they understood the needs, and they made effort to meet those
needs, and they knew how to motivate, not just kids in school, but
they motivate parents to get involved in school. They don't just
stop saying, "Hey, I saw your kid here". They go to houses and
say, "Hey, your kid is doing well." They make the people feel like
one family.
SK:
And because the Lowell public schools were not meeting the needs
of the community, you had to work elsewhere?
TS:
I can talk about my family, about what I did with us, all that. While
I was at the probation department, I went to school here, got my
Master at UMass Lowell in Community Social Psychology. I was
working with Doctor Joyce Gibson, and since they move on, Linda
Silka… I don't know where she is right now, but-
SK:
She's retired. I know that she's still around.
TS:
So she... they were very supportive.
SK:
Did you know Robin too? Robin’s still here.
TS:
Robins and I were in same class. Yeah. She's really nice. So I got
involved, and from the data they collected, I saw that the data was
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useless to the school, because I know that they will not... I mean
they make some attempts, because they got extra money... to use
that money, but they didn't do a good job and tell them... So I...
from that data, I work on my own family in many ways, and I told
you I (unclear) school with CMAA. So they... in community
there's infighting …
SK:
African-American. So believe me I know…
TS:
Politic all over the community too, but I tried to stay out with it,
and focus on what's most affective... So for my role as probation
officer is to make sure that the kid who wanted to go into law
enforcement, making sure that if they wanted to do intern at the
courthouses, they could do it. In terms of kids who wanted to
become police officers I asked currently police officers to help
mentoring them.
SK:
That is fantastic.
TS:
So we have good relations with them. And also attorney and
anyone who is different, I want them to feel welcomed, and I fight
hard for that.
SK:
It sounds like you've done a lot of work, to help change the law
enforcement... the makeup of the law enforcement. Like you're
saying, the schools have to change. [crosstalk 00:37:48] Have you
seen any progress in trying to get the law enforcement to make that
systemic change?
TS:
So, from my conclusion, they know where to feed the hungry
mouth.
SK:
They know where to feed the hungry.
TS:
And a lot of times when people who got fed they were happy. They
stopped caring about anyone else. Then they stopped helping.
SK:
I saw something in the news, online news in 2017, there was a
People of Color Criminal Justice Conference that you spoke at.
Can you talk about what that was, and what the goals of that was,
and what you did there.
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TS:
So I don't know how they got me to talk about… that, but I was
very straightforward with them. I said... I didn't... I think it's very
challenging, the way... I wouldn't call it conspiracy, but I think it's
the culture that kind of lay these ground that... you got to prove
more, you got to prove more. And so-
SK:
You mean Southeast Asians have to prove more? [unclear] in order
to be better… in order to get the same treatment.
TS:
So I spoke... the other day, I spoke at the Lawrence Academy in
Groton, MA, and my prediction is in the next 20 years, most of
these prestigious boarding schools, there's going to be like 60% of
Southeast Asian in the school, because we got money, and then
we're going to send them to the best schools. Because I saw South
Korea, I saw Japan, China. A lot of times, they do not think you
are qualified to be where you are. So they make it hard for you to
move forward.
TS:
You've got to do the work. Show them how hard you work and
then they will respect you, because if we don't do that, that's not
going to help us. I suggested that
TS:
And then the people who I work with, will come back and say,
"You saved my life.”
I knew an Indian American lawyer. And before she became a
judge, she was a lawyer, and she did not know this court well. And
I used to ask her and say, hey, and I told her you go in front of this
judge, this is how you should do this and that.
TS:
And so when she became a judge, and she is like, Wow! And then
when she learned about my family, myself, and how I was... I'm
not important to these people’s eyes, but I do important things for
my kid and myself, so I only can do these things because I learned
and worked hard. I grew.
SK:
When you were working... when you started working the '90s in
Lowell District Court, were you the first Khmer… probation
officer?
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TS:
I was told I was the second probation officer, the other person, he
only lasted there briefly. He left, but I didn't even know that he
was...
SK:
What about now? How would you say-
TS:
So now there are more of us. There are more Probation Officers. I
recruited more.
SK:
Do you think that we have, in terms of both the police department,
but also probation officers and attorneys... I don't know. Enough is
not the right word. But-
TS:
Are well represented?
SK:
Yeah. Are we well represented?
TS:
We are not. We are not. I don't know whether in 20 years or 100
more years, no. I think, like I said to you, there's plenty of people
here that can do the job, but they don't give them a chance. Not a
chance. Not even a chance. They feel that...
SK:
Like the... there's a parallel between like the schools and like law
enforcement agencies about that there are people out there who can
do the job, but there are not-
TS:
They did not. I gave you the example. I used to coach, and winning
is not just something in my blood, but it's just something that I
work so hard at, you know, and in coaching, they'd rather give it to
somebody else than... But I say to them, I say, I said, "There's no
roadblock that can keep me from going forward", because I will go
forward, and I will make my way far and beyond.
SK:
What else has changed, and what hasn't changed? In the instance
from the 1990s to now? So you're saying that there are some more
probation officers, but we still need more?
TS:
The leadership. So we are lack of leaders of everywhere.
Everywhere.
SK:
You mean... within the community or everywhere?
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TS:
A leader, it's not the people in front of you that you know, and you
see that, that you think is a leader. Leader who’s done well, who
established and accomplished who have visions, and I don't think
they call on them to help with the community. So, they don't call
on those guys. They call on somebody who will say, "Don't worry.
I will say you've done a good job. Keep doing what you do". And I
think that's where things... I give you an example. I don't know
how many times this gentleman screw up. I rather not mention
name. He had violated every ethic rules, he has his hands in every
politic meeting, and he's the best, I guess to the city. You ask me, I
always say... When you want somebody to lead you, let's... you
know, you gave him one time to make mistakes, but if he keeps
making mistakes, I don't think it's a good idea to have that
individual keep leading. That's just an example, and I think this
community, put a blind eye on a lot of... these are so many... I've
known so many people done well, but they are not going to
exhaust all energy to catch fire ... So there are a lot of times we
step back.
SK:
What about in relation to the Lowell District Courts and stuff like
that. How would you describe in terms of community members’
relationships to the court system? Has it improved?
TS:
Excuse me one sec. Let me text my wife a sec.
SK:
Oh, yeah.
TS:
Because I put an alarm at home, so I want to make sure that...
TS:
Sorry about that.
TS:
She's working DCF.. was known as the department of Social
Services before.
SK:
So you are very civic family?
TS:
I think so.
SK:
So do you and your wife and your... you said you have a son. Do
you have any other-
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TS:
Two sons. I have two sons. One's working in Boston. He's working
in a financial investment company.
SK:
Do you think that the understanding of the Lowell district courts of
say then the complexities of community members has improved?
TS:
I play a good part of it, because it's... We haven't gotten any
complaint from people. So, I think we have good relationship, and
I think they know how effective I am working with people. So I
think they allow me facilitate, and I don't think we have a lot of
problems with Southeast Asians.
SK:
Have you had any experience with people with orders of
deportation?
TS:
Oh, yeah. I've done... I do, I do. Over the year, so I knew a lot of
them. But I have also been telling them that they would be
deported if they stopped appealing. And I think some of them
stopped appealing, so they get deported.
SK:
And also just because the ground changed under…
TS:
Yeah, the ground changed. It's...
SK:
Because there was no repatriation agreement in the ‘90s.
TS:
I have a good knowledge of all these things, but again, you can
only do so much. And the one who approached me, who asking me
to advocate for them, I was very successful in stopping that
process.
SK:
So, what are some... As we were sort of going towards the end,
what are some other... because you that there are other challenges
that still face the community in relation particularly to the law
enforcement, but maybe just overall. You've mentioned like
leadership issues...
TS:
I think a lot of... I think we as community, I think we still...
because a lot of the infighting, because of lack of transparency...
There's a lot of thing happening, but I don't think it connected well.
And, with that, I think we become more suspicious of each other. I
think it just because of this community. I think that's a challenge.
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And I think not enough kids are going to colleges. I think UMass
hasn't done much to help. I think my son, the last time, I think his
finding it was like I think with 15 to 20% of the kids that finish
college in four years, and they might go back, but I doubt it. And I
think if you want to make a difference, I think they would... their
respond with, "You go and do it". I think their resource they waste
it on keeping people going further in life.
SK:
What do you mean?
TS:
So I... Let me see. My kids went to school, in Lowell, and then I
found the data with UMass Lowell, they're not doing a good job,
lack of parent participations. And I think the kids... They think that
the kids will never get as smart as them. Only a few can get
smarter. And so I said to them, “Getting involved with these things
give you so much more knowledge.” So my children were
exceptional because I told them... I learned from different people
that high school in Lowell, MA is not a good place to have
foundation for colleges. So I made sure my kid didn't go to high
school in Lowell.
SK:
Where did they go to high school?
TS:
My younger one went to Groton School, in Groton, MA and my
older one went to Central Catholic for two years. Sport, academic,
and family were the keys thing. And at Central Catholic, he was
recruited to play soccer at Lawrence Academy in Groton, MA.
The younger one who went to Groton school traveled the world.
He's fluent in Khmer and Spanish. He's a good writer. You can
read his blog color… “Khmer Odyssey.”
SK:
That's great!
TS:
You can learn a lot about family, and he's a... Both of them are
exceptional soccer player, and both of them are... the one... This
younger one is also a musician. He can play 10 instruments. But he
all... Both of them are grounded. At home, they clean, cook, and
help out. And the older one... so when he went to... The younger
who went to Groton schools and Wake Forest University, so he
went to India, France, Italy, Peru, and Spain, and Cambodia. So it's
all funded by the schools. The older ones graduated from
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Lawrence Academy got recruited to play soccer in Kenyon
College, Gambia, Ohio.
SK:
That was a very good school.
TS:
So both of them... and then the... So after Kenyon, he got a job,
two days before graduated. A job, an investment company. And
from there... and so he is there now for over a year. And I told my
kids, because... so my kid always... I keep telling them, say, "I'm
not paranoid, kid" they say, "Why, Dad?" Because you seem like
you (unclear) they discriminate, they racist against... I'm not, I'm
not. They say, "Well, how come?" I say, "Look, if people look at
you again and again and again and, do some facial. So any time
you know they are thinking of you the wrong way about you.
TS:
And then sometime you even overheard conversations or jokes.
And so my kid keeps saying, "That's not true". I say, "When you
get older, you'll know". So both of them run into discrimination.
So now they were like, "Dad, you were right." So I say to them, I
say, "So how are we going to overcome that?" They said, "Well,
work hard. Work hard". My older one is... he's doing well. So he
does that. And on the weekend he fixes houses. He has a girlfriend
whose family owns has some apartments. Very ambitious…
TS:
And the little guy, he goes to Columbia University for his Master.
And then he's going to seek a PHD. And I told them. Look, we
can't change the way people think, but if you have all the answers,
and how hard you work they will ask you. They will ask you. And
that is when they start asking you, and they will impress of how
hard you work, and how much you know. And so those are the...
And we remain humble. In the summer, when the kids are home, I
always make sure that they serve the community. Make sure they
get involved, make sure that they give back.
SK:
Have you ever spoken at the UMass Lowell... That we have a
School of Criminal Justice and Criminology?
TS:
No.
SK:
I think they would be interested to talk [crosstalk 00:58:29]
because you work with this particular... specifically as a case
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worker, Cambodian and [crosstalk 00:58:33] these Asian
American.
TS:
I have a lot of students who... who's interned at courthouse. So I
taught a lot, mentoring them. And recently, I've been speaking to
the kids at the Lawrence Academy and Groton school.
SK:
I think I just... I saw on the paper that Lowell Police Department,
they just had a swearing yesterday or a couple of days ago, with
four new police officers who were all people of color. So there's
slow change.
TS:
Now they need leaders. Someone who are in the circle. Because I
think they... From what I've seen from the outside-
SK:
Lowell Police Department?
TS:
Yeah. UMass and all, they need somebody to sit in, who can
effectively give them a good sense of the community itself.
SK:
They need more people from the community in those leadership
positions?
TS:
Yeah. They, shouldn't just... Like I said, use the same person to
advise them. I have families that I know who sent their kids to
Stanford, Harvard, and many other good schools. They did some
things right. And I think they can say, "Hey, what did you do?
How did you do it?" And I think get back to where I am, I think a
few years ago, they keep saying, "Do you really know what you
are doing?" I think nowadays they start asking me, "Can you teach
me how to do it?" With what I had learned from what I did with
my kids, I told them, I say it wasn't as easy as walking in the park.
We worked hard, and I think I learned something to get them to
there.
SK:
It only took 20 years for people to recognize.
TS:
But end of the day, I remain humble about that. I think the only
thing I can show them is the hard work.
SK:
So is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to
make sure that... From your experiences?
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TS:
I think in your role, you can do a lot too. Do a lot of integral... We
have all these things. How can we let the kids know in this school?
Reaching out to them, and become their mentor. I think over the
years, the most effective thing that I think that helped a lot of this
kids was by-
SK:
Mentoring.
TS:
Mentoring. And I think if you're like Head of Department... I think
by allowing kids to have access to you. To see that, "Wow, look! I
got a chance to get into this place and I can be there". And I think
that would... The access to all the... It's the lack of access, is how a
lot of kids they... I think this is enough. There's so much more that
they can... And they have potential. They had the same abilities as
anybody else. But I think by advocating them, allowing them to
know about this normal potential, can allow them to go anywhere
... Sky is limit.
SK:
So, that's great. I actually had one more question just in terms of...
For your caseload in the ‘90s, did you... was it mostly from
Southeast Asian Americans? Was it mostly Cambodians, or did
you also have like Laos, Vietnamese.
TS:
I helped everybody. But I think most of them-
SK:
Most of them are Cambodians.
TS:
Yeah.
SK:
What about today, in the 20 teens, right? From 2010 to today,
would you say the number of your Southeast Asian American
cases has changed?
TS:
Yeah, yeah.
SK:
Is it less?
TS:
Yes, a lot less than before. [crosstalk 01:03:05]
SK:
Now you work with just sort of all different-
TS:
Yeah, yeah, all different races.
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SK:
So it's interesting.
TS:
You see the changes.
SK:O
kay, great. Thank you very much.
TS:
I want to show you just a few things.
Interview ends
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Southeast Asian Digital Archive Oral History Project, 2019-Ongoing
Relation
A related resource
<span>The collection draft finding aid, </span><a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml17" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml17</a><span>.</span>
The oral history project page, <a href="https://www.uml.edu/Research/SEA-digital-archive/oral-histories.aspx" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.uml.edu/Research/SEA-digital-archive/oral-histories.aspx</a>.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection is currently in progress and information will be updated as it becomes available. <br /><br />Read more about the project: <a href="https://www.uml.edu/Research/SEA-digital-archive/oral-histories.aspx" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.uml.edu/Research/SEA-digital-archive/oral-histories.aspx</a><br /><br />Part of the collection is accessible on this site. <br /><br />Oral history interviews include: <br /><br /><strong>Maryellen Cuthbert, April 2019, Oral History #19.01</strong> <br />An oral history interview with Maryellen Cuthbert and interviewer Sue J. Kim. Since the mid-1980s, Cuthbert has been a private defense attorney working in the Lowell, Massachusetts, area. In this oral history, Cuthbert shares information about her training as a lawyer and reflects on various cases she’s worked with related to Southeast Asian communities. <strong>Content warning: Mentions of weapons, abuse, assaults, and violent situations.</strong> <br /><br /><strong>Thel Sar, April 2019, Oral History #19.02</strong> <br />An oral history interview with Thel Sar and interviewer Sue J. Kim. In this oral history, Sar talks about his early life: living through the Khmer Rouge, resettling in the United States, and his education; his career trajectory: working at the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association, working at the Massachusetts Department of Youth Services, and becoming one of the earliest probation officers of Cambodian descent at Lowell District Court; his other community activities; and his family. <br /><br /><strong>Sivaing Suos, August 2019, Oral History #19.05</strong><br />An oral history <span>interview with Sivaing Suos and interviewer Tyler Sar. In this oral history, Suos talks about her early life in Cambodia and immigrating to the U.S., her experiences pursuing education and holding various jobs, including working in the mental health field and with families experiencing domestic violence, and her family.<br /><br /><strong>Niem Nay-kret, September 2019, Oral History #19.06</strong><br />An oral history interview with Niem Nay-kret and interviewer Sue J. Kim. In this oral history, Nay-kret talks about her early life in Cambodia and during the Khmer Rouge and her experiences holding various jobs in the U.S. related to healthcare, including prenatal care, mental health, and more.</span><br /><br />-------------------------- <br />SEADA would like to thank the following individuals for their work in making this collection available online: Chornai Pech and Monita Chea.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Southeast Asian Digital Archive Oral History Project, 2019-Ongoing. UML 17. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Thel Sar oral history transcript, 2019
Subject
The topic of the resource
Probation officers
Lowell (Mass.)
Oral history
Description
An account of the resource
The transcript of an oral history interview with Thel Sar and interviewer Sue J. Kim. In this oral history, Sar talks about his early life: living through the Khmer Rouge, resettling in the United States, and his education; his career trajectory: working at the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association, working at the Massachusetts Department of Youth Services, and becoming one of the earliest probation officers of Cambodian descent at Lowell District Court; his other community activities; and his family.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sar, Thel
Kim, Sue J.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Southeast Asian Digital Archive Oral History Project
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-04-18
Rights
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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application/pdf; 23 p.
Language
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English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
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uml17_19.02_003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association
Cambodians
Documents
Lowell Community Charter Public School
Lowell District Court
Massachusetts Department of Youth Services