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UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
CONTENT WARNING:
Mentions of war, death, and other situations readers and
listeners may find distressing.
INFORMANTS/
NARRATORS:
VERA T. TITH (VT)
WILLIAM A. TITH (WT)
INTERVIEWER:
DATE:
SHEILA L. KIRSCHBAUM (SK)
FEBRUARY 13, 1993
SPEAKER
DETAILS
(TIME)
SK (00:07):
This is Sheila Kirschbaum and I'm interviewing Vera Tith and her husband William Tith at their
home on February 13th, 1993. I'd like to start with some basic information about where you were
born. You were both born in Cambodia, were you?
VT (00:37):
Yeah.
SK (00:40):
And, were your children born there?
WT (00:40):
Yeah.
VT (00:41):
My children... My son born there in 1979. There’s the Khmer Rouge, you know, left from the
communist, that is the time that the communist leave.
SK (01:00):
And, was your daughter born here?
VT (01:02):
Yeah.
SK (01:07):
Page 1 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
You have two children?
VT (01:07):
Yes.
SK (01:11):
When you say he was born in '79 after the communists leave, what did that mean for you? How
did your life change after the communists left?
VT (01:23):
For me, because since communists occupy in 1975, so that's why my son named Samnang which
means lucky. In English, it means lucky because he's very lucky. Because we both marry before
communists began. We both married, and after that, the communists start, in 1975. And we didn't
have my son on that generation that's very hard. We don't have enough food to eat, we worked
very hard. So, we don't have my son yet. When the communists tried to leave, that's my son was
born. That's why we put my son's name Samnang, which means lucky.
SK (02:14):
Is Samnang a common name for the children that were born after the communists left? I know
There's a child in Julie's class.
VT (02:20):
No. Samnang, which means lucky, that mean very lucky. That mean like that. Yeah.
WT (02:25):
It's just some parent that we believe in some... We just put it. Just give the name away. That we
are just thinking about we are just left from communists.
SK (02:44):
It meant something special.
WT (02:47):
Yeah.
VT (02:47):
Yes, sometime lucky in different way. Like my son's name Samnang. It's lucky because he not
born on that communist. You know?
Page 2 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (02:58):
Hard time.
VT (02:58):
On that hard time. Because, when we saw on that time, if we have children on that time, very
very hard. You know? Not enough food to eat. Was very hard. That's why we put name. And
some other Cambodian child name Samnang in different way because maybe in that family they
have something very very hard, and on that time, they have their child, they put that Samnang
because they left from you know the hard thing which mean that...
WT (03:29):
Like people, they live in the camp. They waiting immigration to call into the United States. But
on that time, they wait and wait. They don't have no name to come to the United States. And then
his wife become pregnant. Okay? They still no name to come to the United States yet. They wait
and wait and wait. So, after that child born one day, they put born and then they have the name,
come.
VT (04:12):
Come to the United States.
WT (04:12):
And then they give the name, Lucky.
VT (04:12):
Samnang. Samnang. Yeah. Which means that.
SK (04:13):
Lucky.
WT (04:13):
Yeah.
SK (04:13):
Wow.
VT (04:13):
Yeah. That's very good, it's important.
Page 3 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (04:13):
Different, different way to give the Samnang or Lucky name.
VT (04:18):
Like Samnang, which mean lucky.
SK (04:27):
Yeah, I can see why.
VT (04:28):
Yeah.
SK (04:29):
Does your daughter have a special name that means anything?
VT (04:34):
My daughter, when she was born in 1983, at Lowell General Hospital, they gave me the book
you know to choose the name, but my husband combined my name. So that's come out Deanna.
So Deanna, before my name is Dee, so he put it down combined together. Deanna, we saw on the
booklet, Deanna, so we took that name. So I thought all night, "That's very good." Meaningful,
too, for Deanna. I see on the book.
SK (05:08):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So her name is Deanna?
VT (05:11):
Yes, Deanna.
SK (05:17):
It's very pretty.
WT (05:17):
D-E-A-N-N-A
SK (05:19):
D-A...
VT (05:19):
Page 4 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
D-E-A-N-N-A
SK (05:20):
Oh.
VT (05:22):
Which mean very firm love, with you know my name, too.
SK (05:28):
Because your other name is?
VT (05:31):
Yes, Dee. D-Y.
WT (05:32):
D-E-E
VT (05:35):
No. Before we changed. D-Y. D-Y is called... You too, if you see D-Y, you not call Dee, you
called Di. Right? See? You say Di. When I became citizen, my husband say that's a good time to
change. So that's why I choose Vera. I don't know Vera, which means, which... I say "Oh, that's
good time." Because I go anyway, and I spelled D-Y, they called me Di. So that's a good time to
change, too. That's why I changed my name to Vera.
SK (06:06):
Oh, that's interesting. So you chose that the day you became citizens?
VT (06:06):
Yeah.
SK (06:11):
And did you choose William when you became citizens?
WT (06:16):
Yeah.
SK (06:17):
Is A-N your original name, then? Your Cambodian name? Wasn't it An?
Page 5 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (06:23):
Oh. Yeah.
SK (06:26):
What was your name before you chose William?
WT (06:28):
They have to call me, that's why I change.
VT (06:30):
They have to callWT (06:30):
Savoeun.
VT (06:30):
S-A-V-O-E-U-N. Savoeun. That's hard to call. You know?
SK (06:30):
S-A-V-O-E-U-N?
VT (06:31):
Yeah.
WT (06:31):
When I was at work, somebody tried to ignore my name.
VT (06:31):
They had to call, "Hey, you!". But that's what I call the easy name. You know? Let them call
easier. That's why he choose William.
SK (07:02):
How does it make you feel, though, to give up your Cambodian name and take an American
name?
VT (07:09):
For me, that seems like okay, because it seems like in here, it's easy for them to call. Like just I
mentioned, my husband, when he go to work, some people have to call, too. So that's a good
Page 6 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
time to say, "Oh, maybe put that name." But, we don't mean like, "Oh, we change names."
Because my eyes still the same, my nose still the same. [inaudible] then my body's still the same.
So, just change name. Easy, the two way. Easy for the people in here, and easy when go to work,
too. So it's no matter. It's not a, "Oh, why we change name in here?" Seems like I think, from my
understand, I think they're very good too. Because easy for them, and easy for us.
SK (07:59):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
VT (08:01):
Yeah.
SK (08:01):
One of my fathers, I think it was his great grandmother, changed the name, for the same reason.
Just to make it easier. They changed the last name. Well, I know Vera, you're a teacher. Have
you been a teacher ever since you've been here, or were you in Cambodia?
VT (08:19):
Yes. I teach at Cambodia for two years. And when I escape to Thailand, I teach like... Thailand,
almost two years too, in Thailand camp, because I stay there and...
SK (08:36):
What did you teach?
VT (08:36):
Teach young children in Thailand, and I teach...
WT (08:38):
French.
VT (08:42):
Secondary school. You know? Like [inaudible]. Because in Cambodia they have vacation too.
Seem like a [inaudible] in [inaudible]. I teach that. Yes. I have background in that. Yeah.
SK (08:55):
You taught French too?
VT (08:55):
Page 7 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Yeah.
SK (08:55):
Wow.
VT (08:57):
Because in Cambodia, learn French. So that's why move them in English. That's why I came
United States. The first time, I don't know English you know very well, but I know a lot
vocabulary in French, then just pronunciation little different. That's why, because I understand.
When I heard the word, I can like, "Oh, that is mean like that." Because it look similar to the
French word. It looks similar. Just pronunciation.
SK (09:21):
That's [inaudible]. People will ask me how to say something in Khmer. I'll say I cannot do that.
But I can say it in French.
VT (09:21):
Yeah. Oh. You look at like, demonstration. In French, “démonstration.” The same exactly
spelling. But just the same pronunciation. See?
WT (09:48):
Different.
VT (09:48):
Different pronunciation.
SK (09:49):
The English language has a lot of words from French.
VT (09:55):
That's right. So might be having easy to...
SK (09:57):
Yeah. And then French and Spanish are a lot alike. I think that's why [inaudible].
VT (09:57):
Yeah, that's right.
Page 8 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
SK (10:04):
So did you have difficulty speaking when you first got here?
WT (10:15):
Yeah, we learn [inaudible] in Cambodia.
VT (10:15):
Then secondary school. At a secondary school that's why I know some English make me easier
come to United States. Because I know the word too.
WT (10:26):
...from high school, and college.
VT (10:28):
When I was away.
SK (10:29):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). [inaudible].
VT (10:30):
Yes. Everyone did when you go up to high school. They have one that was one hours a day. But
everything, every subject is in French. So I took one hours a day in English.
WT (10:43):
When we get upgrade, we learn more French and can go [inaudible]. When we beginning from to
upgrade, Cambodian more, learn French [inaudible] until we finish school 100% with all
subjects, French. All subjects, 100%.
SK (10:43):
Did you go to college in Cambodia, then? And did that make youVT (11:22):
I complete in there, but unfortunate I come here, no proof. That's why I study really hard.
WT (11:30):
They destroy everything when the communist control.
VT (11:31):
Page 9 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Empty hand.
WT (11:42):
How they move-VT (11:43):
Don't have anything.
WT (11:43):
They move all the population out from town to outside. To the farms. You know? Two to three
hours.
SK (11:48):
And did they consider you dangerous because you were educated?
VT (11:51):
That's why the point that I want to share too.
WT (11:55):
They [inaudible], because we saw keep eye on [inaudible] we moved before the communist
control [inaudible], and we saw what's going on [inaudible].
VT (12:09):
Only black, that we can wear. Only black.
WT (12:12):
A dressVT (12:12):
Wear black clothes, black pants, black shirt. Only black. You don't have any color.
WT (12:18):
Black shoe.
VT (12:19):
If you have color, have to be like a... You know? What it's called? Like, the [inaudible] of the
tree to make your clothes black. You cannot wear color. No way.
Page 10 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (12:37):
Oh. You mean like, if they don't provide black clothes enough, and then we have color clothes,
they can boiling the peel tree.
SK (12:41):
Bark of the tree.
VT (12:41):
The bark. Yeah. That.
WT (12:41):
Yeah. Yeah. And we put it inside. Then after that, we put in the [inaudible], to make it black.
SK (12:42):
If you had color clothes, they thought you knew how to make dye?
WT (13:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SK (13:10):
To cover your clothes with?
WT (13:11):
When they just said like this, then when we go change to black color, you still...
VT (13:19):
Your mind not follow them.
WT (13:21):
You mind still [inaudible] something, which you're going to [inaudible] one thing. And one
spoon of rice.
SK (13:37):
So now, do you like to wear colors? You have [inaudible].
VT (13:41):
Yeah. Usually.
Page 11 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (13:42):
It seem like that is still communist never change. They change the idea because the Vietnamese
control. And then they know the idea that Cambodian people don't like the [inaudible]. They just
make freedom about wearing [inaudible], and something. But the rule still communist.
SK (14:16):
So, when the Vietnamese army invaded, that made things better for you eventually. Right?
VT (14:16):
From my understand, it just Vietnamese invade in Cambodia, but on that generation, seem like
Vietnamese have something in their mind too. It's not just come for help us to on that time,
Khmer Rouge. Because that time, Vietnamese want to be occupied from, I understand history,
that... You know? That's hard. It's not just on that time, I say, "Oh, Vietnamese come, and Khmer
Rouge are gone." I don't know, because I don't like politics at all. That's why I don't care about.
But they say Vietnam come, and we are free from communist on that time. But I'm not sure
about that politics. You know? The politics changed somewhere else. But I don't know. But I still
heard on the news and on the tape, I saw on the movie last time, tourist say when Vietnamese
came and Khmer Rouge are gone, those two seem like together. Khmer Rouge come,
Vietnamese out, Vietnamese come, Khmer Rouge out. Seem like politics to each other.
VT (15:28):
That's why my husband and me, keep thinking about it. How we get free too. You know? When
this come, the other out, when the other come, the other out. So that's why free never come to
Cambodia. Poor Cambodians in the middle. You know? The play around, it seems likeWT (15:47):
A game.
VT (15:48):
Like a game. That's what I saw. You know?
WT (15:50):
And I feel bad for the UN. When they are to help Cambodia out. But I heard on the news, some
UN was killed by...
SK (16:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Page 12 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (16:10):
They don't find out. They didn't find out who kill them. But I just feel so sorry. You know?
What's crazy, they don't put UN, they don't respect UN, they just kill. I couldn't believe it.
Because UN just come and help every country. They should understand like a Red Cross. When I
study in the war, when they saw the Red Cross truck, they cannot shoot, but they shoot. They
don't care.
VT (16:48):
That's hard to believe, Sheila. That's my opinion. That's hard to believe. Who do what, and who
killing. And sometimes, when we saw the news, seem like I don't blame. Like, all news is
perfect. Right? Sometimes, sometimes wrong too. You know? Seem like the killing. We don't
know, Khmer Rouge kill, or who kill, or Vietnamese kill. Like, United Nation go to help. We
don't know. Sometime, in mind for instance, like two people, A and B. A want to kill C, but A
don't dot it by himself, because A want to be like that. A give money to B. "B, you kill C." So the
point is, C is to get money. But the main idea come from A. Did you agree that?
WT (17:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
VT (17:45):
That's what I keep in mind. That's hard to see who kill who. That's why the wars still around and
no peaceful.
SK (17:55):
Feel like you can't trust anybody.
VT (17:57):
That's hard. You know? Hard to be trust. That's why I look at Cambodia, and it's very, very sad.
Look at all the pictures. I went there, and very sad.
WT (18:08):
To me I believe they don't even like it, how it was [inaudible]. They don't want to know. And
see, we are outside here and [inaudible] when the Vietnamese out, because we chase them to the
[inaudible]. They took everything they saw [inaudible]. They took every single thing from my
country to their country. But first, they took the gold within the [inaudible], and when are ask
them to change, they said no. That's a soldier died [inaudible]. But we know they took it.
Everything. Machine, rice, gold.
SK (19:01):
Page 13 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Did you have a job where you did check vehicles then?
WT (19:04):
Yeah. We had it, but they don't make, because they more power than us.
SK (19:05):
Right, right.
WT (19:05):
Yeah.
SK (19:12):
So, what was your job at that time, in Cambodia? What were you doing for a job?
WT (19:27):
Oh, me? Electrician.
SK (19:27):
Electrician?
WT (19:27):
Yeah.
SK (19:27):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
WT (19:27):
On the...
VT (19:27):
That's '79.
SK (19:27):
Pardon me?
VT (19:27):
In '79. 1979.
Page 14 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
SK (19:27):
'79.
WT (19:27):
Yeah.
VT (19:27):
When the Vietnamese come, that's '79 that they come. That is why I saw on news they invade
Cambodia. But they take a lot of things from Cambodia. That the point, that's what we see.
WT (19:42):
And one more thing I would like to tell you too. When I was there in last summer, with my
family, and I just heard [inaudible], they say that they wanted the Vietnamese soldier out of
Cambodia. They say, yes. And then they change the clothes from soldier to regular. They still
more Vietnamese in there. And the Cambodia soldier said, all these soldier. But just they change
the clothes.
VT (20:22):
Change the clothes. No soldier, now regular people.
WT (20:25):
Yeah. See? And right now, if you not Cambodian, Cambodian still know which one is
Vietnamese. If you went there, you don't know which one, because they...
VT (20:36):
The same skin.
WT (20:36):
... they are the same color right now. Before they put the hat, we can ID. Now they don't wear the
hat. They make similar to Cambodia until listen to them and listen the action. They speak
similar. Especially, they talk to Vietnamese and to Vietnamese, usually they spoke their
language. Now they don't speak. They speak Cambodian to themselves.
SK (21:06):
Oh.
WT (21:06):
Yeah.
Page 15 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
SK (21:15):
They want to stay.
WT (21:15):
Yeah. They going to stay there.
VT (21:18):
The bottom line, we have to understand each other. No matter what Vietnamese, no matter what
Cambodian. Every country understand to each other. You know? Don't want to be more
powerful, more money, more rich. That's why I keep still in my mind. I say, "What they want to
do?" But all those, they want to be more powerful, more money, take all things. That's why the
war start. What they need for? I don't believe in those things. Like everybody, I don't believe that
way. Why they need war. And look there. It's not peace. I went there, and my tear cry all the
time. I cry, say, "What should I do now?" You know? Because I think that way. If all the people
think that way too, maybe no war, and we all together. That's why I love Demonstration School
very much. That's why I [inaudible] the children grow more and more. A lot of people like the
Demonstration School. I think it's no war at all, because they seem like they love, they joy, they
understand each other.
VT (22:33):
Look at this. Hard to [inaudible] to someone, but like we came in United State. Very good
country. You know? They seem like control, very good. But over there, we want to share too.
We don't want only Cambodian in Cambodia. Not only Cambodian people. Any country can join
together. But don't make the problem. Right? You know? Maybe we do together, loving
together. That's why the way that we are joined together. Like in here a lot. Look at in here.
Seems like a lot of things going up on the news. You know? Killing, shooting, that's why other
guys, they say, "What should we do for people?" That's the main point.
WT (23:22):
Vietnamese people, when they going to do in their country and, when the government
[inaudible], I see in Cambodia too. But after that is gone now, they said like a flower, it bloom.
They come in, get the citizen. But they get the politics from their country. When the war, they
just fight from outside and inside, like a flower. See? That's why. Not like in here, a lot of
different people, they get the citizen, they love the name. They love the United States. They,
"This is my country." Everyone said that. But Vietnamese, they just want my country. Because
they follow the leader, namedVT (24:16):
Pu Ching [spelling?].
Page 16 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (24:18):
Pu Ching [spelling?]. Wrote the book.
VT (24:19):
We know the story.
WT (24:21):
After he die, he wrote a book. "You have to take Cambodia, control Cambodia." He want to
[inaudible] the power.
SK (24:39):
So he still has that influence? He influences people through his writings still?
VT (24:41):
Because they have on the writing, from the [inaudible], we should be [inaudible]. But seem like
that from we they know that. This summer, I went. You know?
WT (24:52):
Didn't you see Kerry?
VT (24:53):
Yeah. John Kerry?
WT (24:55):
Yeah. You see that they went to Vietnam?
SK (24:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
WT (25:00):
They so smart and they do it quick, that they... They do like this. Vietnamese politics like this.
Dirty. They so twist, very fast. In the United States, [inaudible] I trust them maybe, I don't know
for future. Because they change so fast so fast. You know? When they go there, John Kerry went
there, they smart, they show the government, they show the American guy, the soviet guy, they
show the [inaudible]. Just drinking. Yeah.
VT (25:38):
That's why I give example for you like A, B, and C.
Page 17 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (25:42):
[Inaudible] just looking at the last time, how many hundreds that American soldiers die in
Vietnam. Right now, I still look at cartoon or movie. You know? I still miss a little bit, people.
Vietnamese play game so much.
SK (26:03):
Would you ever go back to Cambodia to live?
WT (26:04):
I don't know.
VT (26:07):
For my dream, yes I do.
WT (26:12):
[inaudible].
VT (26:12):
Because I really in peace, that's why we waiting. That's why last summer, I brought my son, my
daughter. All, we went there. We want to show how Cambodia is. Seem like, look really small.
It's not like just before 1975. Before that, very peaceful, and very, very good. You know? That's
very wonderful place. But after 1975, up to '79, everything destroy. From '79, it seems like now I
went there, still not peace also. It's not the same before. But my dream, I say because we hope
that the more we try, sometime, it might be good. We don't know. But my dream, I want to go
back to.
SK (27:07):
Was it dangerous for you to be there when you went last summer? Or is it safe for you to travel
there?
VT (27:13):
I saw by my eye, very scary. Was lucky, that's why we came back here. We keep say we are
lucky. How many people went there? almost 60, yeah? Some got accident, some got stole.
Different kinds. You know? But for me, we went from capital... Because my hometown is far
from capital. How long we drive? How many hours? 12? Or eight hours? We drive...
WT (27:49):
Page 18 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
No, that depends. Before, we drove about six hours, because the roads is good, the highways are
good. But now, it's very bad.
VT (27:54):
You know? It seemed like a [inaudible].
WT (27:54):
A lot of hole. You know? Because the...
VT (28:04):
Broken road, or broken [inaudible].
WT (28:05):
Because Khmer Rouge broke the bridge. And the roads broken. They don't build. And took so
long to go there. But it's not too good. Not safe at all. When see a [inaudible], my family come
back. She said, "Oh, you guys so lucky."
VT (28:29):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's very hard.
WT (28:31):
Because she went there before me. Not safe at all.
VT (28:33):
It's scary.
SK (28:36):
How did you get out of Cambodia?
WT (28:40):
When? Before...
SK (28:40):
When you first left. Yeah.
WT (28:42):
There's a path turn through. Vietnamese control the border. Many lane. Inside border, and plus,
they live in the forest close to the Thailand border. We had to [inaudible].
Page 19 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
VT (29:02):
Crawl. Mine. They put mine. They don't want Cambodia cross to Thailand. Vietnamese put
mine.
SK (29:09):
Vietnamese didn't want?
WT (29:09):
Of course not.
VT (29:11):
Yep. Oh, look at my mother. My mother-in-law cross the mud like this, Sheila. Mud. And very,
very sad. You know? That's why I have one niece, they have two children, now three children
still there. We have five people to come United States. We have name. But my mother, she says
she misses... You know? She don't want to leave. She wants to go back to Cambodia. That's why
she came after me in 1983. '83, that my daughter born. Three months, then she came. And my
niece still there.
SK (29:47):
That'sVT (29:49):
That's my mother-in-law.
SK (29:51):
Your mother-in-law? Uh-huh (affirmative).
VT (29:51):
Yeah. She died by the time that I go work at the Demonstration School.
SK (29:56):
Oh.
VT (29:56):
Yeah.
SK (29:56):
She was here?
Page 20 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (29:58):
Yeah.
VT (29:59):
She's here.
WT (29:59):
She came in '83.
VT (30:00):
But she came after me. I came '81.
WT (30:04):
[inaudible].
VT (30:09):
Yeah.
SK (30:10):
So, you and you, and and your son...
VT (30:14):
And my son.
SK (30:14):
... came in '81?
WT (30:15):
Yeah.
VT (30:17):
Yes, '81.
SK (30:17):
Together?
VT (30:17):
Page 21 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Yeah.
SK (30:17):
And then your mother came in '83?
VT (30:18):
Came after.
WT (30:20):
When we was at the camp, we have [inaudible]. That's why [inaudible]. And when we have
name, she don't want to come. She wake me up. She want to go back to country.
VT (30:44):
[inaudible].
WT (30:45):
She said she want to die in Cambodia.
SK (30:46):
Your mother did?
WT (30:46):
Yeah.
VT (30:46):
Yeah.
SK (30:50):
But she changed her mind, and sheWT (30:51):
Yeah. When I come here two years, and then they have a lot of problem in the camp, [inaudible].
You know? The people for [inaudible].
VT (30:56):
[inaudible]. That's hard to leave. With my niece we decide very hard...
Page 22 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (31:15):
And when my mother come, [inaudible] to come to the United Sates, two men took my niece
away from her. Seemed like that they steal her, but over here they call...
SK (31:29):
Kidnapping?
WT (31:36):
No, not that. [inaudible].
VT (31:36):
Take away. They took it out. Because my niece... how old she is? It's 11 or 12. Yeah?
WT (31:46):
[inaudible] they come down here, 16.
VT (31:53):
Yeah, they took it out. So that's why she came alone. She came United States.
SK (31:57):
Who? Your niece?
VT (31:59):
No. Now my niece still in the camp now.
WT (32:03):
My niece [inaudible]. Because the two guys took from my mother. They don't want my niece
come.
SK (32:10):
In Thailand? So she [inaudible].
WT (32:12):
Yeah, they took from the Thailand camp to the Cambodian camp.
SK (32:17):
They took her back to Cambodia?
Page 23 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
VT (32:20):
Because, seems like they want money. Something like that. But they took it out, and my mom
still alone. So that's hard. You know? That's not easy get there, and we went to pick her at the
airport.
WT (32:34):
But when I was there last summer. I asked one person to go from Cambodia to get my niece to
me. They spend $100 go there, and $100 go back to [inaudible].
VT (32:53):
That too far. You know? Too far from the Thailand camp and from my house that I live. That's
why they go to [inaudible], they want to see.
SK (33:04):
So, you didn't see her when you were in Cambodia?
WT (33:06):
Yeah.
SK (33:08):
Oh, you did see her?
VT (33:08):
Yes, that's right. WeSK (33:09):
But you had to pay $200.
WT (33:09):
Yes.
VT (33:09):
Yes. $200.
WT (33:10):
[inaudible] had a long [inaudible]. Plus, people that [inaudible]. They had to sleep one night from
[inaudible] to for my niece to see me.
Page 24 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
SK (33:29):
So she's not free to leave the country there? They're still holding her?
VT (33:33):
Yeah. NowWT (33:34):
See, I went to a international before my mother dead. Before my mother pass away. And Captain
Flynn. Yeah. Captain Flynn.
VT (33:51):
Yeah, Captain Flynn.
WT (33:54):
She work for the [inaudible]. She said I cannot leave my [inaudible], because [inaudible].
SK (33:54):
Oh.
WT (33:55):
They just want mother...
VT (33:57):
The rule change.
WT (33:57):
... or father, or brother, or sister.
SK (33:57):
Immediate family.
WT (33:57):
Yeah.
VT (33:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's why we wait, and wait, and wait. So we cannot get [inaudible].
WT (34:06):
Page 25 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
But right now, I heard we can sponsor from Cambodia to United States. I just talked to my wife
this morning, and she's still have one brother, two sister, and two....
VT (34:29):
One niece, one nephew.
WT (34:34):
Yeah. To her [inaudible].
VT (34:35):
That you already [inaudible].
WT (34:36):
We have picture. We have picture [inaudible].
VT (34:49):
Sad story, Sheila.
SK (34:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
VT (34:50):
That's whySK (34:50):
It's hard to imagine.
VT (34:56):
Now we leave all [inaudible]. This all that we can show.
WT (35:04):
Let’s see.
VT (35:04):
We [inaudible] a lot together. This is my sister, here.
WT (35:11):
Page 26 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Yes. [inaudible].
VT (35:12):
Now she's teacher too, over in Cambodia.
WT (35:13):
[inaudible] when I went there. And she told me her [inaudible] is in college.
VT (35:13):
In Cambodia.
WT (35:13):
[inaudible].
VT (35:13):
Yeah. In Cambodia.
WT (35:23):
[inaudible].
VT (35:26):
Oh. My uncle. He is very tall. [inaudible].
WT (35:31):
This the college.
VT (35:35):
[inaudible].
WT (35:40):
[inaudible].
VT (35:41):
[inaudible].
SK (35:47):
It must have been hard to say goodbye to her, to come back here.
Page 27 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
WT (35:49):
[inaudible].
VT (35:49):
Oh, Sheila. All day cry. Especially my daughter, my son.
WT (35:53):
See this? All these people, uh when I went there we uh make celebration. Yeah. With all theVT (36:01):
They so happy...
SK (36:02):
Why?
VT (36:02):
... to see us [inaudible].
SK (36:03):
[inaudible].
WT (36:03):
Yeah.
VT (36:03):
One month very quick. Very quick one month.
SK (36:07):
Yeah. They [inaudible].
WT (36:09):
[inaudible] cook, chef.
SK (36:09):
Wow.
WT (36:20):
Page 28 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
They so happy to see us, and we come close. "Oh, they are people from United States. Oh. Look
[inaudible]." They used to say that. These are people in front of the airport. When I went to come
back to the United States, and I took a picture. See.
SK (36:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). All friends and relatives of yours?
WT (36:45):
Yeah.
VT (36:45):
No.
WT (36:46):
No, it's justVT (36:47):
It's not all mine. Different people. You know? They come to wait, to see. They have their
brother, sister, [inaudible]. You know? Sometime go to ask "Did you heard this name, that
name?" Because they miss to... very, veryWT (37:01):
See? These are my wife’s sisters too.
VT (37:03):
Just married.
WT (37:07):
Just married after we come back. We cannot wait, because we just have one month vacation.
VT (37:14):
[inaudible].
SK (37:35):
Wow.
WT (37:36):
And then we cannot wait.
Page 29 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
SK (37:36):
Oh. But she sent a picture?
VT (37:36):
Yeah.
WT (37:36):
Yeah. She sent these two pictures.
VT (37:36):
This my uncle, this my aunt.
SK (37:36):
[inaudible].
VT (37:36):
There is my brother. [inaudible].
SK (37:36):
Oh.
VT (37:36):
Where? [inaudible]
SK (37:43):
Are you still an electrician here in the United States?
WT (37:46):
No.
SK (37:46):
Doing something else now?
WT (37:47):
Yeah.
SK (37:50):
Page 30 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
I think you might have told me [inaudible], but I forget. Are you starting your own business?
VT (37:50):
Yeah.
SK (37:57):
Or, were you trying to start your own business?
WT (37:57):
Yeah.
VT (37:57):
Because now, Sheila, my husband will get... almost 12 years, right?
WT (38:03):
No, 10.
VT (38:03):
10 year. And got laid off, now we know. I keep telling him. "Go to school." You know? No one
can steal education. [inaudible] you know keep like a trick on us. And he got laid off. See? That's
very...
WT (38:18):
The one that I'm talking about. That's [inaudible] with my mother and sister to come.
SK (38:18):
Yeah.
WT (38:18):
And then...
SK (38:40):
So did you have to start from the beginning with your education?
VT (38:44):
Yes. I became the first Cambodian teacher in Lowell, in 1985. So I study courses you know
every semester. So now, it seem like 120 credit a lot too. But I keep take every semester. One,
two, or three. But last year, the year before, I took a lot. Like, complete 10 courses, eight courses.
Page 31 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
But now, Dr. Pearson told me, just two more. That's it. So when I have a degree, I can go to get
certified too. Because before you get certified, you have degree first. But they cannot give,
because I don't have any proof. And they invite other experts, come. You know?
WT (39:35):
Most of the camp...
SK (39:35):
Hold old were you?
VT (39:39):
Very skinny.
WT (39:41):
Skinny. [inaudible].
SK (39:42):
That's still in Thailand?
WT (39:47):
Yeah.
VT (39:47):
Yeah.
SK (39:48):
While working here?
WT (39:48):
That's one teacher.
VT (39:51):
My husband. Yeah. And I teach young children that come. You know? We have ฿10. For one
day. Right? ฿10. Thailand money. ฿10. They call it, ฿10. So my husband get ฿10, I get ฿10
every day. You know? That's why. To survive, at that camp.
SK (40:11):
What year did you leave Cambodia and get into the camp?
Page 32 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
VT (40:16):
'79. '79.
SK (40:19):
So you spent two yearsVT (40:20):
Spent two years, yeah. So I start teach over there almost two year until the name call, that's why I
left to United States.
SK (40:30):
And some groups sponsored your coming here?
VT (40:34):
We pick, from I heard, I fill out the form, because a lot of American people went to the camp.
They ask more information. They ask me to want to be like one more they understand French a
lot. Or English, some. So I work with a agency, Like, a hospital, a lot over there, they need me
too. But lucky when I go to interview with the school, they say they want to take me to teacher,
and the other one want me to be a nurse over there, because I know I was a midwife in Cambodia
also. So seems like one want me, they want me but... finally I teach, because my husband sport
teacher, and say, "Oh, teach." And I had my son too on that time. So we both went the same. You
know? Teaching. And we get money from that.
SK (41:25):
So your husband taught sports?
VT (41:25):
Yes.
SK (41:26):
And he was an electrician, too?
VT (41:34):
No, in Thailand no electrician. He electrician in Cambodia.
SK (41:38):
Cambodia. Yeah.
Page 33 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
VT (41:40):
Yeah. He get a good job. Like, in here too. Everything, he can do it. That's very good.
SK (41:45):
That's good..
VT (41:45):
Yeah. Have a lot too. You know? If you car really expensive. Seem like little thing he can by
himself. So that's very good.
SK (41:56):
Now, did you have any choice about coming to Lowell or...?
VT (42:00):
Oh. The point is, I came the first time, I came to New York.
SK (42:06):
Oh.
VT (42:06):
Yes. The first arrive at New York, February 18th. I remember. I never forget. '81. And I came
New York almost one year before. Very hard at New York. I live at Brooklyn. My son often
sick, sick, sick. And I took subway. My husband came early. Two weeks he had go to work,
because they don't provide welfare or food stamp. So he go to work, because say, "I have only
one son." So that's why he go to work very far. You know? Take subway, and 15 day in United
States. $3, something he work there.
VT (42:50):
And after that, friend in mine live in Lowell. He call and say... because he know my background.
Because usually, I learn in Cambodia. Have a lot education. And he say, "Come here." Because
hear everything I told, because I have a hard time. Take subway, bring my son, go to the clinic
that's very far, change different train. You know? Almost very, very hard. And he call, and I told
about life in New York. And he say, "Come here, because in here, they have education, easy to
go to hospital, easy you know to go everywhere."
VT (43:28):
So we decide. Say, "Oh, maybe we can." And after that, is why we came in Lowell in 1982.
January fifth. Yeah? January fifth, I came in Lowell. So, came in Lowell, that's why I say, "We
Page 34 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
cannot survive, because we don't have any welfare and food stamp." I decide to go to work, too.
And on that time, '81, '82. It's very, very hard to get a job. So they took me, interview me
[inaudible] they choose only me to work at company product for glasses. Because I can
understand. Hard to find a job on that time.
VT (44:11):
So after that, I worked at the Prince, because I have Deanna. And my son go to school, and he
missed school. He missed school one day, because the bus didn't pick up. So I make a phone call
at Greenhalge School. So I make a phone call to say... Because the bus didn't pick up, I drop my
son to school. And that time, that's really that I start to be a teacher. And Miss [inaudible], my
son teacher, had problem with the Cambodian kid. They cannot understand what parents say. On
that time I brought my son in there, he said, "But you have to speak Cambodian with the other
parents, because they cannot communicate." So I talk, and I tell English that she say, "Oh, you..."
She asked me about my background, "What do you do?", and say, "Oh, you should apply,
because they have job opening. They want to looking for Cambodian teacher."
VT (45:08):
So she call right away. Because Mr. Gallagher... She spoke with Mr. Gallagher, principal at
Greenhalge. And she called to [inaudible]. And one day I worked over there. I have good salary
too, at Prince. And they call me, interview on Friday, and they let me work on Monday. I get job,
that's why I became a first teacher. And after that, I teach Vietnamese, Laos, Cambodian. At one
class. You know? So they don't understand. I cannot speak much. I know how to count in
Chinese, in Vietnamese, or in Laos. But not much word. You know? My husband know a lot.
Like, different languages. He know a lot. You know? The word to find. You know? That's very
good for him too. That's why I start teacher in 1985.
SK (46:02):
That's great.
VT (46:03):
That's right. Look at that story. I still do my resume on that, because I never forget. So I write
down, because... You know? Who knows? That is for my children to see what happened. You
know? The sequence of life. So I already write down, that's why I took classes. Sometimes they
ask about writing on our lives. Very, very share. And when you see the sequence look at, that's
sometime I have free time, I lay down, and with my husband, and we thought about it. How we
all now. You know? Seem like it's amaze. We don't think we have everything, and we do.
VT (46:51):
Look at our life. We supposed to be killed on that generation. We so skinny. My husband work
very hard. You know? Now he's very hurt, still hurt. A lot of things he hold. Because you cannot
Page 35 of 36
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
say no. If they say you have to do, you have to do. But me, lucky. I'm lucky on my generation.
I'm so lucky too. And that's working so hard. Because, seem like I don't know. That's why I say
my life very, very lucky. When I work with my parents, I'm very lucky too. Because I have my
sister do all the work. And very good, because only one for me is study. I really love study.
That's why I say, I still remember my parents. Especially my father. Because he say, "No one can
steal your education." He worked very hard for me. You know?
VT (47:48):
Because, in Cambodia, because my family is not rich, but it's not very poor. In the middle class.
But Cambodian people, if you a girl, you cannot get high education. Most have to be stay home.
Some that have high education, very rich. You know? Seems like. Or lucky. For me, very lucky.
You know? Seem like I finish school in my country, and I go to capital, I finish study. And I
have name. Some people support me to go to more education. That's why I finish my education
very high in Cambodia. And lucky, and all the communist generation very lucky too. And I
never lie on that time. I always tell the truth, because he say...
End of tape 1 of 1, side 1 of 2.
Page 36 of 36
�
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Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
CONTENT WARNING:
Mentions of war, death, and other situations readers and
listeners may find distressing.
INFORMANTS/
NARRATORS:
VERA T. TITH (VT)
WILLIAM A. TITH (WT)
INTERVIEWER:
DATE:
SHEILA L. KIRSCHBAUM (SK)
FEBRUARY 13, 1993
SPEAKER (TIME)
DETAILS
SK (00:03):
In the camp you mean..
VT (00:03):
No, in the communist generation, people are starvation. When I call, I say because maybe why,
maybe why people like no generation because people 17 the old people they divide separately.
They eat differently because what is called crime open borders or Khmer Rouge right, what's
called... And our people because people 17. So you cannot eat really well.
WT (00:44):
When the revolution on the March 18 that their people, they were in the town because 17th of
March and they put because my people in the town become the new 17 March. And there are
people that they work together to control the town because they hold people 18 March.
VT (01:32):
Yeah 18, 17, 19 maybe, why? But they wear black too, black clothesWT (01:39):
Some they do...
VT (01:40):
But they control no people. That's why, you cannot move.
WT (01:47):
That's why they killed 17 people. This [inaudible] my people.
Page 1 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
VT (01:50):
If you not work like they say, "They say you not very good." So itWT (01:54):
17 March come in to control the whole country. That's why we call the people in the town
because 17 March they control [inaudible].
SK (02:12):
And the all 18 March were the communist?
WT (02:13):
Yeah.
VT (02:14):
Yeah, they all... They say they are all. So they control.
WT(02:19):
They mean they are live outside of the town. That means the group, the Khmer Rouge
themselves, they put their name 18.
VT (02:31):
18.
WT(02:32):
All 18 people. That means the all 18, that mean the all person just that every people like eight,
and you and me they work together in outside the forest. When they get in they control the all
people.
SK (02:50):
And so you were the new people?
VT (02:53):
Yeah. New 17 and you have to work what they say. If they say like “do this,” you had to do this.
If you not do...
WT (03:03):
Like the 18 the boss, the leader. The 17 [inaudible].
Page 2 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
VT (03:11):
Employee.
SK (03:13):
Now you said you've lived far away from the capital, your hometown was far away from the
capital?
VT (03:18):
Yeah.
SK (03:19):
Is that right?
WT (03:20):
But close to the program. Close to the...
VT (03:25):
The stadium, the state.
WT(03:27):
See lived close to the state. The name of the state is called Battambang, B-A-T-T-A-M-B-A-NG. Battambang.
VT (03:41):
Capital in Phnom Penh. When you have higher education you have go to Phnom Penh. Like in
here like you want to continue around college here but if you pass college, you hold like a
Harvard something like that. You go over there and live. But this lies in my near mine is very far
away, fly to the...
WT(04:03):
Over there, the college if he needs so that we have primary school. We finished primary school,
we had to go to the high school. Still have in the state and then they have the college in the state
too. After we finish college we had to go to the university in Phnom Penh, the capital. On the
university we have the communist.
SK (04:37):
Did you meet at college then, or?
Page 3 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
WT(04:38):
Yeah. We meet at the college and we marry before the communist [inaudible]
VT (04:45):
At the time that’s lucky you know.
SK (04:45):
One year before the communist came in?
VT (04:45):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
SK (04:54):
Is there a special story to the time that you met each other? Were you were in class together?
WT(05:01):
No.
VT (05:02):
We just see to each other by that time. I didn't see him very much, but we know that he told his
mother because Cambodia it's different. It's not just, he seemed like he had the other school and
the school and when they arrange that his parent go to my parent, that's why we marry that way.
It's not like we met in the same school or never talk. I never see him too before, but he saw me.
But I never see him that Cambodian culture arrange.
SK (05:36):
And arrange?
VT (05:37):
Yeah, arranged marriage.
SK (05:40):
And the way that works, did you have any choice in the matter or did your parents pick?
WT (05:45):
No we had to... Like me I had to tell my parents and my parents has to talk to her parent.
SK (05:53):
Page 4 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
You did notice her first?
VT (05:53):
Yeah.
WT(05:55):
But we don't talk to each other.
SK (05:56):
You didn't talk to her. But you saw her? And you told your parents...
WT(05:57):
Yeah.
SK (05:58):
And then you talked...
VT (05:58):
Yeah, but I never see because usually Cambodian girl not much, you know, not talk in private,
no. Or in public also because when you a girl it's different from here that very different. When I
go to school seem like we have... When I have the elementary school they are Cambodia girls
school, boys school from my stand.
VT (06:25):
When we go to college we mix not much talking in here, share, no. If you are a girl you sit with
girl. But always seem like separate, not much...
WT(06:36):
One classroom.
VT (06:37):
Yeah, one side girl, one side boy. Not much discussing, no. If you want discuss I always discuss
with girl and boy discuss with the boy. So sometime they never see it's not sure. That's why I
sing in here. When I go to psychology courses I see now a lot pregnancy, a lot problem with that.
VT (07:02):
But we have that too over in Cambodia. Not might happen like that. Why? Because girl and boy
not talking so much to each other. Even I learned at university too. We don't have chance too
Page 5 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
much to talk with the boy because that is the culture. When I want the way that the boy or
whatever and I want, you seem like a shaking. We shy with the boy, but that is hard that is the
culture too.
VT (07:33):
Now when the kid born in here, seem like very close. You see you don't the boy, they never
married and here that from I know most Cambodian girl, Cambodian boy, they know before not
like me. I never know where but when married, one year I never look at his face very... But that's
very hard to look his face very in front. He keep talking, he saw me. The motorcycle, he saw me
that way.
VT (08:04):
But I never see and married because we follow parents. Parents say marry and that time we
married and we tried. And from now on and at the communist generation too it seem like
husband and wife not work together. Husband work far away and I cooking you know in the big
building they want me to... They have like 10 or 15 girl cook to survive. Maybe thousand people.
When they come from work food had to be ready for them.
VT (08:43):
So that way sometime one week or two week, my husband you know come to see me. Yes, they
let to come to see me. [inaudible] not very much but lucky with me and my husband seemed like
we meet each other often time. But some family, no. Sometimes they kill husband, why still
[inaudible]. That's very strange unless when some time we have spare time we go back sit on by
seem like scary.
VT (09:17):
So that's why I told my husband he got laid off it seem like we sit down, you know we do how
much we can save. Now we take care of my children bring them go to school, we care them first
because seem like very scary. Maybe I mentioned to you or I mentioned to our team teaching
over there too.
VT (09:37):
We sit down and say usually when we work together my husband will usually go Friday for
lunch, but now we cut it down we save money that way and seemed like he knows a lot like car
fixing or fixed somehow in here and electrician he excellent. He can fix everything. So we save
that money too.
VT (09:58):
So now, seem like if I have job, seem like support that's my one and only [inaudible]. I want to
be rich. That is my middle way. Now I seem like I have survived as good pay my mortgage
Page 6 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
before I didn't rent. Now I rent one family to save because my husband got laid off. I get to share
with me because my mortgage is very high too. That's why I’m stay. So my family all before my
mother passed [inaudible]. So my husband keep [inaudible]. So now he goes to school, get more.
SK (10:45):
He goes to school now?
VT (10:47):
He go to school too and takes some college course about business. He want to do something a
little bit because seem like no work is a very tight, have a single to school and we do a lot of
work too now. So maybe sometimes we can do a little bit now.
SK (11:09):
Are you going to [inaudible] next year?
VT (11:09):
Now we discuss... You miss on advisory meeting. See advisory meeting on Thursday, last
Thursday, yes we do that and a lot on that day uh early childhood. They have a lot of push and
and it’s [inaudible]. You a lot of push and we know a lot and a lot of school asking when you
there.
VT (11:32):
And Greenhalge school, Mr. Gallagher, why he married his wife was there. He married with
Helen and Helen know me and Greenhalge School. We have to go back and after that everyone
when we go back and I say, because we don't know. We say we had to work it out and
[inaudible]. And then on that day he mentioned don’t be apply anywhere else because maybe he
want me to try to have one more year. But not very sure yet.
VT (12:02):
But for me, they're asking me, they test me, ask question, how will you feel on working and then
I say I love very much, Sheila. I think that program is excellent. It's not even looking at they
together. And you see it, look it, we have some time problem. But you know what because
people like that there even when I say thinking of this program is excellent as far as I know.
They shared it.
VT (12:32):
They didn't know you are when I worked at Greenhalge. Somehow [inaudible] with this
Cambodian kid like that. I heard, but in here seem like they don't know Cambodian or Spanish.
Page 7 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
They really enjoyed together, the three year over there. That's why I like that way. They keep
asking me like that and a lot of same, I try. They learn very good too.
VT (12:57):
Even understand or repeat but they try very hard. Even when you know that's why I saying, the
more language you have, that's easy to live on that I have my experience. I know friend, and I
have vacation and I went to [inaudible] last few years but my mom was alive. Even then my
husband's friend, we go two car and he got big accident, they get hit from the other car because
[inaudible] drive very fast. Did you went there? Very fast drive and hit him really badly. And he
cannot speak French.
VT (13:37):
And over then they taught you English too and ask for help with English and they asked, "Can
you speak French?" I said yes. I asked called report police ambulance come right away and car
got hit on one spot. We had to go to hospital, hospital speak French too. So if my husband and
me cannot speak what should we do?
VT (13:59):
That's why I still write in [inaudible] for my children. That's why my children enjoy learning
language. So my husband keep my son, my daughter learn Khmer everyday one hour, because it
or now when they know more they put them in the regular class before my children belong
bilingual. They know you know.
VT (14:22):
So now they say you understand we have mainstream, they go regular. So we don't want to miss
our culture because now he write the letter to his aunt, he write in Khmer too. So that's why he
wanted. So I say that school time. He has time teach them and he learned more French from me
if I have time. If I have time in Spanish too.
SK (14:49):
Yes.
VT (14:50):
My son love it because now they cut off at [Bailey/Daley?] school. Before, they have Spanish
lesson, now they cut off. But he knows some, I say don't worry maybe go to high school. Maybe
some more but I want him to get a Spanish because this area you know more Spanish because
French, I will have more later on. Because now look at our society a lot of Spanish everywhere.
So when you get a job, you know English and you know more Spanish and you know about
Khmer. That's easy to find, to understand to each other.
Page 8 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
VT (15:28):
If you don't understand when Spanish say ah we don't know. That's hard, that’s why I know.
That's what I heard one time I will get Greenhalge School they say English only. I say I went to
public hearing at Smith Baker. Unbelievable. English only seemed like I still remember in your
[unknown]. That's good. When you go outside I went to [unknown] something happened. You
cannot do English might be you have hard time. How hard you all imagine it if you cannot speak
the other language.
VT (16:02):
And you just stay in own pond that's good, very well. That's from I understand that's why I really
love the [unknown]. I really give example like that. I think you noticed it's very good. If children
enjoy and look at, few children fluent Spanish, understand, I play card, play song, they remember
you know body part. They go to Cambodian store they say in English, in Khmer [unknown
Khmer]. In there. That's really good.
SK (16:39):
And you're great too you. Everybody will be sad if you leave Demonstration School.
VT (16:43):
I don't know but I like because for me, it's okay, Sheila. I can go find job. Every school now, a
principal and by [inaudible] school want me to go to her class to... And a new school and get
school year they want me there. For me it's okay but feeling that's really impressed me with the
children.
VT (17:07):
We will cry. Professionally I cried because last week Julie left, and we went to see the show at
South Campus. Children cry really hard because Julie left, we saw Julie. So seem like hard to.
That's why we had Cambodian proverb say, "People come in very happy, when get out very,
very sad to get." That the way it is. That's now at school advisory last Thursday they discussed
about that, but we don’t know yet because the plan is to be changed, have to be rotated. That the
point. But we don't know yet, maybe sometime we can change and we can use the two year and I
had to go to the other school this year too, that’s why [inaudible].
VT (18:08):
When you gave Vera too much school. But now I don't know but just he said on that day, not yet
don’t go apply everywhere. He will work it out for me but we don’t know yet. I love very good,
Sheila. I try very hard. Sometimes children not ready to learn or different, but when they ready,
it's very good and then it's excellent. That's why I said this program is really excellent.
VT (18:38):
Page 9 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
If all the world understand each other like a singer song. First we know vocabulary like came
here. I pull out, I recite the vocabulary to be able... My body go to understand. If you don't have
word, how do you understand? First, you had to learn the word. That's why I had to pull out, play
games made something different for them to learn.
VT (19:04):
If you have word in your mind, you combine word together and you can speak out. So you can
get food to eat easily. When you go somewhere you can speak. That's why I said this group is
excellent. This program, did they repeat...
SK (19:22):
Now this question doesn't have to do with the school, but I'm curious to know. The Cambodian
celebrations that you do here now that you're in the United States, but especially in your family. I
know that Cambodian New Year's celebrated.
VT (19:33):
Yeah, we do. The other one and the [unknown Khmer] is very, very important and [unknown
Khmer] is called soul day.
WT (19:40):
Soul day.
VT (19:40):
Soul day. That celebration is very big one. Because in life, we believe that parent or family pass
away. We believe because the lifecycle has to be resize. The had to become by. So when the
people was that from the believe, they still hang around somewhere. We don't know to get the
new life and they are starvation, looking for food to eat and we are alive.
VT (20:10):
So that's right that we believe we make your food, we bring to the temple and the monk pray for
them to come get out even some people with something bad and their life, they cannot find the
place to reborn. So that's why they hang around. We believe that it's why the big celebration.
Everyone never miss.
WT (20:35):
Like my mother passed away and the place that buried her and when we love her so much and
we would like to do something for them. We understand that she have a hard time to carry like a
problem [inaudible] until to the board, and we have to understand how heart she is carry after the
baby born take her to give the food, provide this provide that. Even go somewhere she had to
Page 10 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
carry us. That's why when she passed away we had to do something special for her. This not the
time that passes away. This is a year and a year after I had to invite the monk and some people
some nun to go over there to pray for her and on the place. Use the picture, here. This my
mother’s picture put on the stone on... How do you call this?
SK (22:02):
A tombstone in the cemetery?
WT (22:04):
Yeah.
SK:
This was, where was this?
VT (22:05):
In here. Lowell.
WT (22:08):
I think just first one, right, that we bury. The Cambodian usually do uh burn.
SK (22:12):
Cremation.
VT (22:12):
Cremation.
WT (22:14):
Cremation. But I miss her so much. I cannot cremate her. I had to leave her one place and I
bought a big land and I bought four place for her and it's a big, I don't want to step on somebody
else. I just do around the map and put a flower the summer or I want to do like this just go there
and put [unknown].
VT (22:44):
And now in monk they pray.
WT (22:46):
Pray.
VT (22:46):
Page 11 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
That's we believeWT(22:47):
Do we believe just only the monk? And they have candles and they have incense. That mean
when the incense burn that mean that we can go to... We told the monk pray my mom and then a
time a lot of people.
SK (23:15):
Is there a certain day that is Soul Day?
WT (23:18):
Oh, yeah. Once a year.
VT (23:20):
Yes, once a year in October.
SK (23:22):
October?
VT (23:24):
Yeah.
WT (23:24):
It's close to the Easter.
VT (23:27):
No close to theSK (23:28):
Memorial Day?
VT (23:29):
... Halloween. Halloween, October. Because that's why I still say because they were like different
and know, Halloween seemed like a fun for children. And this really every Cambodian had to be
do that because if you not do that, we have like the thing that say the people that was that, that
relate to our family, they looking for seven temple. That they didn't see you make anything and
pray to them, they will you know...
Page 12 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
WT (24:04):
Cry.
VT (24:05):
They will what it's called cry very hard.
WT (24:08):
Because on that time theVT (24:11):
And it's not blessing for you. They don't want to blessing for you to see the very bad new for
you. They say like you have something bad that we believe that it's a very big celebration. Every
temple and here we have two temple, now because too many people at one. So we just have one
more temple near here and the other one near our school. I think the [inaudible] school very big
place. Very, very big over there.
SK (24:52):
At [inaudible] street?
VT (24:53):
Quinley? What’s it called? Quinley? Quinley Street? Yes, yes. Very big and beautiful.
WT (24:53):
The time we went to Cambodia to her house, my wife’s house. Her father bone buried and we go
there. We ask the monk to take him out and put special thing where we have buildVT (25:12):
Cemetery.
WT (25:12):
... cemetery.
VT (25:12):
Monument. We have monument over there. Put them. Seem like make you luck, that we believe.
But I believe that's very true come out too, Sheila. We do good things, we receive good thing.
That's my believe, that's why we do reallyWT (25:28):
Page 13 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
What's... He pass away in 1979. ‘79, burry.
VT (25:40):
And this all the bone.
WT (25:40):
... very bone. ‘91.
VT (25:40):
‘92.
WT (25:47):
‘92. And the bone still good. We said it's a good bone.
SK (25:51):
But he was killed by the communists?
VT (25:52):
Yeah.
WT (25:54):
Not killed by the communist.
VT (25:59):
In the communist generation.
WT (25:59):
The time that the communist out and he pass away.
VT (26:07):
Yeah, the communist generation. I didn't see him on that time when we go. My husband and me
go there let's see while he was there. We didn't see him while there.
SK (26:15):
So he died natural causes during...
VT (26:16):
Page 14 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
Yeah, natural. No seemed like he really starvation or food. Very skinny. That my brother, sister
told me, which mean seemed like killing by communists also because very sad, very sickness.
That's why he told me.
WT (26:32):
They celebrate for my father-in-law. This is my wife's brother, that the sister come back and
married is the school teacher and this my niece. Nephews.
VT (26:57):
The parent. No parent when they were young, that's very sad. My niece and nephew.
WT (27:08):
These five, these fiveVT (27:10):
They're single.
WT (27:11):
... no parent, single. We just have the old sister over here. And when I went there I couldn't
believe they have taken care by themselves. No old people take care. We saw surprise.
VT (27:29):
They're very, very strong.
WT (27:31):
When we went there we're so proud that they don't have no parents and how they grow like this.
VT (27:38):
They grow themselves.
SK (27:46):
Did your mother die before your father or after your father?
VT (27:49):
Yes. My mother died before.
SK (27:49):
Of natural causes too but during the communist generation?
Page 15 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
VT (27:50):
Yeah. Then from point is very starvation, Sheila. No food to eat, not enough. That's why
sometime they're working hard. But some that my parent die from that way but the other people
die from killing, shooting and very hurt with the stick like here by [inaudible]. Very, very sad.
WT (28:18):
Long knife like very sharp.
VT (28:19):
And like this. And that's why I collect what is called magazine and it's called? No, it's not
magazine. Geography? I have that picture that's why I bring to show that I do on Cambodian
hero, this team and I bring different picture, different story, different book to show them. They
really enjoy to ask this question about. So sometimes they say mine is hero too because I have
lived, stay alive because suppose we tell them about how Cambodian map is that those like
history first.
VT (29:00):
And we learn about Cambodian hero. What is hero mean? So it's come out beautiful even Julie
too do draw beautiful; she want to gain money. To be hero in Cambodia. Some say want to be
building hospital. Look at the idea. I have a lot of things, keep it over there.
WT (29:24):
These the people they kill they took a picture. This is Pol Pot, the leader of the Khmer Rouge.
VT (29:33):
Black.
SK (29:33):
That's one.
VT (29:41):
A lot of bone look at this is.
SK (29:41):
Which is notVT (29:46):
This is the [inaudible]. It's not like my father was that was sickness.
Page 16 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
WT (29:49):
He kill like I kill animal.
VT (29:50):
This one like animal, Sheila. I shake like this. They go get in line. Get in line and bang, bang,
bang, with a stick like a bat.
SK (30:03):
I heard they killed maybe 3 million people?
VT(30:08):
Yeah. Look at these unbelievable, they had this. How they get all this? That's right. I collect you
know. When I see something I already pull on together.
SK (30:20):
You teach your children about the history?
VT (30:23):
Yeah.
SK (30:23):
To make sure that they know?
VT (30:23):
Yeah. Because first I told them where I born. The place that I born. Introduce them [inaudible]
they know how I escaped. First I live in here, continue education. So everything they know so I
point to them about me.
WT (30:40):
Vietnamese soldier. Vietnamese.
VT(30:47):
Look at... So that's my prayer every day. I want peaceful coming soon.
WT (30:52):
My believing: if the Vietnamese don't want it, just my understand, if they don't want it, they just
take care their country and leave my country alone. I think no problem plus China's too. China
Page 17 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
they want my country too, you see. I don't know. You see in the communist time, all the time
they just took the time to turn for the [inaudible].
VT (31:22):
To make a show to sometimes.
WT (31:22):
And they took the [unknown]. They took the [unknown] to make spoon. You see that?
VT (31:22):
You know what that’s why no education. No son, and [inaudible].
WT (31:22):
No, the leader they have education.
VT (31:22):
My different.
WT (31:31):
The people see that this is the capital before communists.
VT (32:02):
My son-in-law this very much.
WT (2:06):
[inaudible].
VT (32:08):
He loved it. He went to work Cambodia, he want to go to see uncle one. His uncle one, but we
cannot go because not safe at all. You cannot say I miss it.
WT (32:22):
On a high way.
VT (32:23):
I went there one time when I was young.
SK (32:27):
Page 18 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
What time?
VT (32:27):
Only one time and over there they have let me say people that came to see uncle what that means
lucky people even people live around in this place around they cannot go in there. They say thatSK (32:46):
Who is controlling it?
WT (32:47):
This place?
SK (32:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
VT (32:49):
Now they say Thai want it and we don't know, Thai that place. And that's hard.
SK (32:57):
Thai? Thailand?
VT (32:58):
Yeah, Thailand. My son want to go. He do research on his paper, on this too. He went to library
and we have somebody's friend research that he say he want to see it. But when I got there I
asked let's cannot say, we cannot go unless there isSK (33:15):
Well I have that beautiful picture that you brought back when we had the interviews. You
handed everyone one that I put it out up on my dining room. Very pretty.
VT (33:28):
That one look at I want to from there. Before we don't have it I bought over there to show my
children $5 when long time.
WT (33:46):
This was very hard to I carry it from the [inaudible].
VT (33:47):
Page 19 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
Oh, my goodness.
WT (33:47):
They don't let you carry it. They take care for me and when I got to Boston, which is [inaudible].
VT (33:51):
That's the one to see, you know. Even my grandchildren later on lucky if they have this thing to
show them. Very simple thing and look like my mother made that. That's really show how
working hard and so my children never forget. So we save a lot of things. She sew very hard.
SK (34:16):
She sewed that with all the beads?
VT (34:17):
Yep. And spend a lot of time. A lot of time, Sheila. She sit down and do that's very, very you
know for culture. That is fun. Usually we do when we go to the temple. That's very important
point and she complete just notWT (34:29):
They cannot be done for regular.
VT (34:29):
Not regular celebration and specialWT (34:35):
When they have child. Not a daughter, just a boy become a monk.
VT (34:45):
We had that really [inaudible].
WT (34:48):
Become on Monk and thenVT (34:49):
That's my son became a monk.
WT (34:51):
Page 20 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
... They put that on the clothe before they get the clothe for the monk. Yellow cloth, clothe. The
parent have to uh... that’s my son.
VT (35:04):
That's special and she completed.
WT (35:08):
My son become a monk when uh... three months' vacation.
VT (35:10):
He was nine years old. Two month and half.
WT (35:19):
My mom want him to be a monk. To pray something for us. And after that the head monk...
VT (35:25):
Unbelievable. 10 week. Nine years old.
WT (35:30):
We can put it on.
VT (35:31):
And eat only two times a day, nothing else. One morning and one afternoon.
WT (35:36):
Morning and lunch.
VT (35:39):
That's all.
WT (35:40):
You know this... [inaudible] He’s the president of the CMAA, too. After him, and then Narin
[unknown] after theVT (35:52):
You know Narin [unknown] because I saw his name.
SK (35:57):
Page 21 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
Yeah, I know him just through the [inaudible].
VT (36:02):
And after Narin, my husband tried to happen the president to help in 1987.
SK (36:29):
Wow.
WT (36:29):
[inaudible].
SK (36:33):
So this is all in Lowell?
VT (36:34):
Yes.
WT (36:35):
And we look so small just [inaudible]. All I think can [inaudible] made this here how to look for
us. That has been very [inaudible].
VT (36:35):
That's right classify look. It's amazing and...
WT (36:38):
And he not hungry in evening and nighttime at all. I don't know that we believe and we put that
on and we have Buddha put inside here.
VT (36:54):
Because my son always if he opened the... [inaudible]. That's why I still wonder my son hungry.
But finally, he said no. 10 weekSK (37:06):
10 week?
VT (37:08):
Yes, vacation. All vacation is spent there and come back, go to school with no hair.
Page 22 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
SK (37:17):
Now, do many boys do that? Many Cambodians? It's a very special.
VT (37:21):
Very special. And seem like if you have son like that which mean we are lucky parent because
he seem like he do the job like my husband was a monk too. He took his vacation and he paid
because we believeWT (37:37):
I do that for my mom.
VT (37:39):
He do for his mother. But it's very, he do that very religiouslyWT (37:43):
Like, like we...
VT (37:44):
Look at that my husband over there.
WT (37:55):
We know her for almost [inaudible] way, right? And we are the son, we kno, we try to open way
for her [inaudible]. We had the son before the parent passed away to become a monk for her,
open the way for her and then see she really enjoy, she really happy. She really peaceful when
she passed away.
VT (38:24):
Peaceful, my mother passed away, that true. I believe that's why I see by my eyes.
WT (38:37):
I prepare my mom and another person that I saw by my eyes in the Lowell. Even Cambodians
[inaudible]. Maybe not only one son like me, have many children.
VT (38:41):
Many son.
WT (38:47):
But he have a [inaudible].
Page 23 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
VT (38:52):
Oh my God. [inaudible] I go to see it when [inaudible]] he passed away. Unbelievable people
pass away.
WT (38:54):
Had the monk come to pray for him. They still not [inaudible].
VT (38:55):
Did you ever see people pass by your eyes? I have two. My mother, no that very carefully is two,
he one that my husband just say the man in Lowell. Oh, Sheila. Had to pass away. But my mom
at Saint Joseph Hospital. My mother in law, it's a very peacefully. Peacefully.
WT (39:27):
You know what? After that I tried to find out what's going on then I know this when people like
young like me are very peaceful for the you know the...
VT (39:27):
God [unknown].
WT (39:27):
[inaudible] then in this let's come to you when the [inaudible]VT (39:27):
I believe.
WT (39:27):
[inaudible] before she died. You will see what happened. And my mom passed away go like a
sleep. Easy and then [inaudible].
VT (40:07):
Unbelievable at Saint Joseph.
WT (40:07):
And one another day I believe [inaudible]. Maybe with time. Talking of [inaudible] with time.
Go the temple or go to the church [inaudible],
VT (40:23):
Page 24 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
So you calm yourself down that the point I think you seem like everywhere want this, want that.
You still want it so your mind is not very put together when you seem like go down. You've seen
the way you go. That's right peaceful maybe. But my mother very peaceful. I keep going and sit
down with my husband, my children was sleep and very peaceful. We sit and sit until she passed
away. Very nicely.
SK (40:58):
One more question I wanted to ask you about when you first arrived in the United States. You
said you went to New York first. What was your first impression of the United States?
VT (41:11):
Oh myWT (41:13):
When I sit like this like people at the moon. Because my country when we live a big country like
[inaudible].
VT (41:18):
Oh my gosh, Sheila.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
When I go to the market I saw everything new in the refrigerator, everything fresh. I so
impressioned.
VT (41:40):
For me, I’m scary.
WT (41:41):
Coming out of my heart and every word that I want to say I wrote a letter to my country, to my
niece, my brother, sister [inaudible].
VT (41:54):
First time I came I still remember on February 18 that the snow coming down. That's my first
time, I never see a snow. I will send the sandal from Cambodian and the guy go pick me up very
tall man. I say what happened. We scare, I scare. My husband not scared but me very scary. I
think because no lie. What should I do? They gave me $45 and that time $45 for three people.
Yes 45, 15 for each. $45 and he goes looking for my husband needs over and finally decide we
come with him. And they brought us to go to the hotel and leave me right there. And that is the
Page 25 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
first time I never meant. I'm so hungry. What we do my husband come down because at hospital
they have a grocery downstairs.
VT (42:54):
My husband come and buy bread and little food over there. I cannot sleep that night. My
husband sleep, my son sleep, but I could not sleep. I made a wonderful job to write down to let
my son. Because I look at the snow is coming down and I was wondering what should I do? This
is the new country for me. What should I do? I keep asking myself. I said what should I do
because usually I don't know. They don't they have rice to eat or I'm not because I came in the
Thailand camp, no raining about United States because usually I heard when they go after the
call to the United States they have training like a six week, six months, six months sometime at
Philippine or somewhere else but me, no. When my name was called boom in one day, United
States right away. Never stopWT (43:53):
Because direct.
VT (43:56):
Direct.
WT (43:56):
We come direct. We not go to the another country like Philippine or Malaysia. Somewhere...
VT (44:06):
Directly to United States.
WT (44:07):
Some friend had to stay. But I don’t know why I come direct. They look at my education
[inaudible] the communist looking for me to kill more or something like that. Maybe [inaudible].
SK (44:50):
Was there a thing you decided that you didn’t like about the United States? Or have you decided
that there are things that you don't like?
VT (44:53):
In United States?
SK (44:54):
Yeah. What would you like [inaudible]Page 26 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
WT (44:56):
And then they have many country. They have applications like France, Belgium, Australia, andVT (45:04):
Japanese too.
WT (45:04):
And thenVT (45:07):
A lot of countries.
SK (45:09):
You could pick from?
WT (45:10):
And then I pick United States because on that time when I was at the college and university. I'm
studying English then I decided oh maybe I come to the United States because I know some
English already and French I already study. And we decided to come to the United States.
VT (45:36):
We put application and [inaudible].
WT (45:38):
Before the United States called, the French call first and then we decide we don't want to go
there.
SK (45:42):
The French call first?
WT (45:45):
Yeah. And just we didn't decide to go to France. We wait to the United States. And especially
my wife have friend in the Switzerland.
VT (46:02):
Usually they want before communist, they want me to go to Swiss too, but on that time seem like
balancing. Which way I go? Which way I go? When I go I miss my family. So that's why I stuck
with the communist.
Page 27 of 28
�UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE
TITH, VERA T. AND WILLIAM A. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW, 1993
UML 16 (Oral History #93.7)
NOTE: This is the transcript for oral history tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
WT (46:16):
You remember thenVT (46:18):
Then they gave me the [inaudible]. Yes.
WT (46:20):
Khao I Dang.
VT (46:22):
Khao I Dang. They want me to take the Swiss.
WT (46:30):
They remember when the Swiss lady she work at the hospital. SheVT (46:35):
They already gave everything, buy airline, air tickets for me. But I cannot go. That's why we
lucky, we came to the United States. Very lucky.
Unknown (46:47): End of tape.
End of tape 1 of 1, side 2 of 2.
Interview ends
Page 28 of 28
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Description
An account of the resource
The Vera T. and William A. Tith oral history interview collection consists of one audiocassette tape, 1 audio CD, a complete transcript, and a partial transcript of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith on February 13, 1993. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William’s children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts. <br /><br />The collection is accessible on this site.<br /><br /><strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">Content warning:</span></span></strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0"><strong> </strong>Mentions of war, death, and other situations read</span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">ers and listeners may find<span> </span></span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">distressing.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW158174635 BCX0"> </span><br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993. UML 16. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith oral history interview transcript, 1993
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cambodian Americans
Electricians
Elementary school teachers
Genocide--Cambodia
Lowell (Mass.)
Oral history
Refugees--Cambodia
Description
An account of the resource
The complete transcript of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William's children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts. <br /><br />The transcript is in two parts. <br /><br /><strong>Content warning:</strong> Mentions of war, death, and other situations readers and listeners may find distressing.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tith, Vera T.
Tith, William A.
Kirschbaum, Sheila L.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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application/pdf; 36 p.
application/pdf; 28 p.
Language
A language of the resource
English
Khmer
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
uml16_93.7_i003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
1990-1999
Cambodians
Demonstration School
Documents
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Title
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Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Description
An account of the resource
The Vera T. and William A. Tith oral history interview collection consists of one audiocassette tape, 1 audio CD, a complete transcript, and a partial transcript of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith on February 13, 1993. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William’s children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts. <br /><br />The collection is accessible on this site.<br /><br /><strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">Content warning:</span></span></strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0"><strong> </strong>Mentions of war, death, and other situations read</span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">ers and listeners may find<span> </span></span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">distressing.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW158174635 BCX0"> </span><br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
Source
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Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993. UML 16. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
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The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
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Title
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Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith oral history audio recording, 1993
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cambodian Americans
Electricians
Elementary school teachers
Genocide--Cambodia
Lowell (Mass.)
Oral history
Refugees--Cambodia
Description
An account of the resource
The audio recording of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William's children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts. <br /><br />The recording is in two parts.<br /><br /><strong>Content warning:</strong> Mentions of war, death, and other situations readers and listeners may find distressing.
Creator
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Tith, Vera T.
Tith, William A.
Kirschbaum, Sheila L.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
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1993-02-13
Rights
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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2 audio recordings; 00:48:43 and 00:46:48
Language
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English
Khmer
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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uml16_93.7_i002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
1990-1999
Cambodians
Demonstration School
Sound recordings
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PDF Text
Text
Oral History
Partial transcript of interview with Vera Thong Tith and her husband
William An Tith of Lowell, MA. Interview was chiefly with Vera, and
unless noted otherwise, all quoted words are hers.
Conducted by Sheila Kirschbaum, TIHC, February 13, 1993
Both born in Cambodia (Win 1950, Vin 1952)
1979: Son born in Cambodia after Khmer Rouge left, after Communists left
Were married [8/25/74] before Communist rule
Held off from having children during "hard" Communist-ruled
"generation."
Named son born after Communist rule "Samnang," meaning "lucky"--they
mean this as "very lucky."
"Not enough food to eat, work very hard," during Communist era.
People in camp waited long for agency "call them to the United States."
Daughter born 1983 at Lowell General Hospital. Nurses gave Vera a book to
choose name from. Husband suggested Dy (pron. "Dee," Vera's given
Cambodian name); they named her Deanna.
When V. and W. became citizens, they changed names from Dy to Vera,
from Savoeun to William ("Savoeun" was "hard to call"; Dy would be
pronounced "Die"). William explains that "somebody [at work] tried to
ignore [his Cambodian] name." No bad feelings about changing names.
Vera wants names to be "easy" for others. Says," My eyes still the same;
my skin still the same .... It's no matter. "
Taught in Cambodia 2 years. After escape to Thailand, taught there almost
2 years (taught young children). In Cambodia, taught math, French in
secondary school--"like a private school."
Some language difficulty once in US, but not much, because Cambodians
studied English in school for one hour a week in secondary school; every
other subject was taught in French. Did less and less in Cambodian and
more and more in French as they went on in school. French knowledge
helped with English learning.
Vera completed college*, but had "no proof." Left Cambodia with "empty
hand." "They destroy everything when Communists come through,"
explains William. People were moved from in town to outside the town, to
fields.
*[William completed college, too--technology, Phnom Penh.]
Q: Were you considered dangerous (due to education)?
A. They (V. & W.) knew they had to "keep eye on ... what was going on.
We were quiet."
�2
Wore only black, could only dye clothes black. Boiled bark of tree to make
black dye to dye clothes. Wore black like a uniform, to suggest conformity
(compliance) with Communist rulers. Vera: "Your mind not follow them"
if you don't change to one color. One color, "one spoon of rice every day."
(For this interview Vera happens to be wearing a bright gold sweater,
William a bright red one.)
·
The rule still Communist. Vietnamese invade, "have something in their
mind, too." Not just there to free people from the Khmer Rouge. Vera says,
"I don't like politic[s] at all." One comes, the other leaves; one leaves, the
other comes. "Poor Cambodian in the middle" (V.). "Like a game," adds
William.
No respect there now for UN. They will kill anyone. Would even fire on a
Red Cross truck.
Hard to tell who ~ vs. who orders killing. Khmer Rouge? Vietnamese?
(Vera uses A, B, C to show who kills whom--A may hire B to kill C, for ex.)
"War still around ... very, very sad."
William: "Vietnamese don't want to get out of my country. I saw by my
eyes, they took every single thing from my country to their country."
Machines, gold, rice concealed in a military truck by a Vietnamese who
claimed the truck contained only the body of a dead soldier.
William was an electrician in 1979 when the Vietnamese invaded
Cambodia. Vera saw on the news that Vietnam had invaded.
Vietnamese soldiers changed clothes to look "regular," not like soldiers,
instead of leaving as they were supposed to have done. They took pains to
look like Cambodians. Only their speech gave them away as Vietnamese.
They would even speak Cambodian to each other. Real Cambodians weren't
fooled.
Vera: "The bottom line: We have to understand each other," all people of
all countries. Have to avoid urge to be "more powerful," to have "more
money." Vera and her family visited Cambodia during the summer of
1992. Vera says: "My tear cry all the time," explaining how she felt while
there. She kept asking herself, "What should I do now?"
Vera then says if there were more Demonstration Schools and no war,
people would understand each other (The Demo is a trilingual, tricultural
Lowell elementary school where she teaches preschool children).
"United States very good country, seem like control very good.... We want
- to share, too. We don't say we want only Cambodian people in Cambodia.
�3
Any country can join together, but don't make problem." Vera wonders
"what should we do" to promote understanding, togetherness.
William: People who get citizenship love the land (US). Cambodian people
are like a closed flower (hiding patriotism inside). Ho Chi Minh's book
influenced people to take over Cambodia. When John Kerry went to
Vietnam, he was shown, by Vietnamese, an unreal scene. ("They so
smart," Wm. says of the Vietnamese.)
Q.: Would you ever go back to Cambodia to live?
A.: (Vera) It is "my dream" to go back to Cambodia to live.
(William) "I don't know" if I would. I would go, "in peace."
Vera explains that before 1975, Cambodia was a wonderful, peaceful place.
From 1975 to 1979 "everything [was] destroyed" and there is "still not
peace."
"Very, very scary" now: accidents, thefts. Hometown is far from capital.
Six-hour drive before, eight-to-twelve-hour drive now: holes, road is
"broken," bridges unrepaired.
THE TRIP OUT
William: "tough time." Vietnamese inside border, in forests near Thailand
border. Had to crawl, watch for mines. Lots of mud. Vietnamese didn't
want Cambodians to cross to Thailand.
IN THAILAND CAMP
In 1981, five people (in Vera's family) "have name" to come to US: William,
Vera, son, mother-in-law, niece. Mother-in-law, when name called,
decided to stay. Wanted to die in Cambodia. But two years later (1983),
conditions in camp (theft, little food) caused her to change mind. Two men
took sixteen-year-old niece away from her, perhaps "for money." Took her
to Cambodian camp. Mother-in-law came to US in 1983 (when
granddaughter Deanna was three months old).
William: asked someone to help them see niece last summer--had to pay
$100.00 each way--long, overnight trip. Cannot get niece to US now; she's
not a close relative (according to Kathy Flynn, who works with refugees).
They just learned they may now be able to sponsor. Vera has one brother,
two sisters, one niece, and one nephew still in Cambodia.
•
[At this point Vera brings out photographs of her uncle, niece, and other
relatives they saw in Cambodia last summer. Says, "Sad story, Sheila."]
Had celebration. "Very quick one month"--hard to leave and time passed
quickly. Relatives touched them, said, "Oh, people from United States," felt
their skin. Vera's sister got married shortly after they left. People at
airport in Cambodia asked V. and Wm. if they'd seen any of their relatives
�in US. "Did you hear this name, that name?" they would ask.
4
William is no longer employed as an electrician--was laid off from Wang
after ten years. "Company, you know, keep like a trick on us, and we get
laid off," Vera explains. Vera advised William to go to -=tchool in the
intirim, saying, "No one can steal education."
·
Vera became the first Cambodian teacher in Lowell when she started
teaching in 1985. At first she took eight to ten college courses a year; now
takes one to three courses a semester (aim=120 credits for a Bachelor's
degree). Needs two more courses for degree, then certification.
William shows picture of himself teaching sports at Thai camp. "Skinny"
at camp (lack of food). V. and Wm. were paid ten "baht" (sp?) a day in
Thailand currency (both were teaching).
Were in Thailand from 1979-1981 before "name called" to come to US (other
countries offered as choices as well). They'd filled out forms. American
agency came to camp, interviewed them. Hospital wanted to hire Vera as a
nurse; she'd been a midwife in Cambodia. William, an electrician, does
electrical work around the house now, and Vera values his skills.
Q.: Why come to Lowell?
Vera: First, came to NY, arriving in Brooklyn on Feb. 18, 1981. Lived there
nearly one year. Son often sick, had to take subway to clinic. No welfare;
food stamps provided, though. Husband got job in fifteen days. Worked for
about $3.00 an hour, traveled by subway a long distance to work. One day, a
male friend living in Lowell called. Knew of Vera's background and
education; said, "Come here!" In Lowell, he pointed out, are educational
institutions, hospitals, an easier life.
January 5, 1982: Tiths came to Lowell--no welfare, no food stamps. Hard to
find jobs at that time. Vera decided to go to work at Comet Products
[makers of plastic utensils], then worked at Prince pasta factory in Lowell.
1985: Son late for school, bus didn't pick him up for some reason.
Vera called school (Greenhalge), brought son to school. She was
asked that day to translate :for another Khmer-speaking parent. Teacher
talked to Mr. Gallagher (principal) and Ann O'Donnell (director of
Bilingual Department) on Friday. Gave up well-paying job to start teaching
at Greenhalge the following Monday. She has written down (in resume
form) these facts, so her children can see the sequence of events.
•
Vera explains that now, when they have free time, she and her husband lie
down and "think about how we are now"; they feel amazed: "We supposed
to be killed, that generation.... We [were] so skinny.... He [William] is
still hurt--a lot of things he hold [inside] .... You cannot say no; if they say
�5
you have to do, you have to do .... But we so lucky! Working so hard ....
Very, very lucky."
Vera loves studying. Says her father "worked hard" for her, telling her,
"No one can steal your education." Family was middle-class. In
Cambodia, generally, "if you [are] a girl, you cannot get high education.
Most [women] have to ... stay home." Vera was lucky to finish school,
then finish university at capital (Phnom Penh).
END OF SIDE A
SIDEB:
The Communists divided people. They gave different groups different food
to eat. "New 17 March People" and "Old People, 18 March" were the two
groups. The Old 18 People controlled the town. They wore black, too, but
controlled, and might kill, the "17 people." Came in on Mar. 17 to control
whole country. The 18 were like "the boss," and the 17 "the employees."
[The Tiths mean APRIL. The Communists invaded on 4/17/75.]
Hometown far from capital, close to "state": Battambang. William
explains that primary school, high school, college were in "state," then
university in Phnom Penh, capital.
William and Vera met at college one year before Communists came in.
Not in class together. V. never saw him; he saw her. He told his mother
he had noticed Vera. His parents went to Vera's home. Cambodian girls
don't talk "in public or in private" to µoys. The elementary schools are
either all-boy or all-girl. There was some mixing in college. In classroom:
one side girls, one side boys. Each "discusses" with own gender.
(In US, Vera says, there are many problems with pregnancy [among
teens]. Boys and girls in Cambodia don't have much chance to talk. Girls
"shy" with boys. "That is the culture." In US, boys and girls "close.")
--above story, cont.: Vera avoided looking at Wm's face (as was the custom).
He'd seen her riding a motorcycle. Parents said for them to marry. In the
work camp they, like most husbands and wives, were separated up for one,
sometimes two weeks. Vera cooked for a thousand people. Some families
did not get together at all. Some people's loved ones were killed.
Now the Tiths are thankful to be together, despite hard times. They try to
save money, have no desire to be rich, are happy to survive. They rent out
their upstairs to meet the costs of a high mortgage. At first all five in the
family lived together (William's mother and the four Tiths). Vera stresses
the importance of William's going to school (He's currently taking business
courses.).
�6
Lots of schools want Vera to work there next year. She loves Demo., Demo.
program--children are together [integrated]. At Greenhalge, she heard an
American child say, "Don't play with this Cambodian kid." Demo. kids,
she says, disregard differences.
On culture and language:
Vera notes the value of language study. Knows French, used it in Montreal
after car accident they were in. Writes in journal. William tells how they
teach their kids Khmer for one hour a day. Kids are mainstreamed, but
Vera says she doesn't want kids to "miss our [Cambodian] culture." Her
son writes in Khmer to his aunt, and learns French and Spanish from
Vera. AIM: to understand each other. English-only movement is like
being "in your own pond." In Montreal, knowledge of other language
proved very helpful.
Demonstration School: Demo kids use Khmer words naturally. Teaching
opportunities could exist for Vera at the Greenhalge, Demonstration,
Washington, and Lincoln Schools. Tells of when one Demo. faculty
member left and kids cried. Cambodian proverb: People come in very
happy--very, very sad to get out. Demo. plan is to rotate teachers out after
two years. Vera has stayed extra year already and will stay at least one
more year (by request). Notes importance of child readiness, importance of
mutual understanding. Tries various ways to help kids learn vocabulary.
Celebrations: Soul Day--big celebration. Parents or family members pass
away; life cycle is to come back, to be reborn. Soul "hang[s] around
somewhere, looking to get a new life,_" may be hungry. 'We are alive"--we
make food, bring to temple. Monks pray for the deceased. William tells of
how his mother's difficulties in life (childbearing and childrearing) mean
"we have to do something special for her." Had monk pray for her during
celebration. Cambodian custom is to cremate, but, he explains, "I miss[ed]
her so much I cannot cremate her," and therefore buried her. He says he
wanted "to leave her in one place," bought her a bi1' plot (didn't want to step
on any surrounding graves in placing flowers).
Monks use candles, incense in praying for deceased. Soul Day is on October
30th, near Halloween, Vera points out. Every Cambodian has to "do that."
All souls looking for seventh temple, and if relatives don't "see you make
anything and pray to them, ... they cry. You won't be blessed. Two
temples now, in Greater Lowell. He then shows a picture of a tray on
which are Vera's father's leg bones, dug up and reburied in US in 1992.
(He died in 1979.) William points out that the bones were "still good." Vera
explains, "We do good things, we receive good things."
Vera's father died during "Communist generation." Not killed outright,
but suffered due to lack of food during hard times (probably starved to
- death). Shows picture of family members, including five children with no
parents, no "old people" to take care of them. [Two are Vera's sister's
�7
children; three are Vera's siblings. Vera's sister died of starvation.]
Vera's mother also may have died from starvation (indirect killing).
Others killed by sticks or long knives; some were shot.
The Tiths collect pictures, stories, share accounts of Cambodian heroes.
Vera considers herself a hero for surviving. Vera and Demo teachers
talked with preschool and kindergarden students about heroes; Vera tells
me my daughter Julie told of what she would do if she were a hero.
Vera and Wm. show picture in National Geographic of Cambodian mass
grave, skulls. People were lined up and killed "like animals," hit with
something like a bat. Maybe three million people killed. V. and Wm. teach
their children about personal and national (Cambodian) history. Vera: "I
pray every day that peace will [come] soon."
William: "If the Vietnamese don't want my country, ... leave my country
alone." He says China wants Cambodia too.
Picture of cars in a heap--they (Vietnamese) took tires to make sandals.
Picture of a stripped Mercedes. Took ?(some car part) to make a spoon.
("No education.")
Vera says their son Samnang wanted to go to Angkor Wat, but couldn't go-not safe. Vera went there once as a child. Belief that people who go are
lucky. Thais, some think, want Angkor Wat. (Displayed in the Tiths'
living room are 2 large pictures--one of wood?--of Angkor Wat.)
They show me a special beaded piece made by Vera's mother over long
period of time. Desire to familiarize their kids with Camb. culture, through
collected, displayed objects.
Show picture of son Samnang, who, at age nine, became a Buddhist monk.
As a monk, he'd use a beaded piece, and eat only twice a day (morning and
afternoon). Head shaved, beautiful white lace shawl over one shoulder.
1987: William was a CMAA leader, after Narin Sao.
Son was monk for 10 weeks; Few Cambodian boys do this. Having a son
like that means luck for parents. William had become a monk for his
mother, to "open way for her," in accordance with "Buddha Bible." Wm's
mom passed away peacefully at St. Joseph's Hospital in Lowell. Wm. tells
story of guy with many children, many sons, but none who "opened way."
Vera adds that man found it "hard to pass away." William says he tried to
determine why the man suffered so, and learned he'd been a jail guard and
pehraps had beaten people and was now getting his payback.
�8
FIRST IMPRESSION OF US (New York):
William: "My feet were like the people [walking on] the moon." Big
country. At market, "everything new in the refrigerator! Everything
fresh!"
Vera: "For me, it was scary."
William: Wrote home about NY ("Words coming out from my heart") to
mother, brother, sister-in-law in Cambodia.
Vera tells of first time seeing snow, Feb. 18, day of arrival. She was
wearing sandals. "What happened?" she asked a tall man who was
picking them up. Said to herself, "New life. What should I do?"
The Tiths were given $45.00 ($15 for each of the three of them). The man
transporting them went to look for William's name, found it, brought them
to hotel. William bought some food at grocery store. Vera couldn't sleep;
snow coming down. "This is the new country. What should I do? They
have rice to eat or not?" No training at Thailand camp. Others were
trained in Philippines and Malaysia; they weren't. Went directly to US.
William tells that his application was, he thought, worded such that he'd
indicated his life was in danger due to Communists. Lots of countries
listed for them to pick from. They'd picked US, because he had studied
English. Said no to French option. (French called first.)
Vera explains she had friends in Switzerland who had purchased tickets
for her to go there. Chose US instead; feels "lucky" to be here.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
Interview ended as tape ran out. Missed answer to question: Is
there anything you don't like about the United States?
ANS.: an unequivocal "Nothing!" The Tiths consider themselves very
lucky to be in the US. They are effusive in their gratitude. They wanted
very much for their parting remarks to be recorded, and I promised to
record them on paper. They would not complain about anything about life
in the US. In closing they reiterated their gratitude.
SEE "FULL TRANSCRIPT"
�9
Full Transcript
of that part of the conversation with Vera and William Tith that
appears on the Master Tape but not on copies of that tape:
Q: Were there things you decided you didn't like about the United States?
(Silence) Or have you decided that there are things that you don't like ...
Vera: In the United States?
William: They have many countries, they have application, like France,
Belzig [Belgium?], Australia, and etc.
V.: Japanese, too. A lot of country, you know.
Q: You could pick a country?
Wm.: And then I pick United States because at that time when I was at the
college and university I study English, and I decided, "Oh, maybe I come to
United States, because I already know some English, and then I already
study," and we decide to come to United States, and I found ...
V.: We put application in ...
Wm.: ... United States call. The French call first and we decide we don't
want to go there.
Q.: The French called first?
Wm.: Yes. We just, we didn't decide to go France. We decided wait to the
United States only. And special my wife have friend in Switzerland.
V.: Usually they want, before Communists, they wanted me to go to Swiss,
too, but on that time, you know, seem like a balancing: Which way I go?
Which way I go? When I go, I miss my family, you know, so that's why I
stuck with the Communist ...
Wm.: You remember when they give you cowida [words unclear]* ... (See
page 10.)
V.: They wanted me to take to the Swiss ...
Wm.: They remember, one Swiss lady, she [Vera] work at the hospital ...
V.: They already gave everything, you know, buy airline, air ticket, for me,
- but I cannot go. That's why we lucky we came to the United States. We
very lucky . . .
END OF TAPE
�10
*When I inquired about this word, Vera told me that the "Swiss lady gave
[her] clothes already cut for {her] size and a necklace timer."
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Description
An account of the resource
The Vera T. and William A. Tith oral history interview collection consists of one audiocassette tape, 1 audio CD, a complete transcript, and a partial transcript of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith on February 13, 1993. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William’s children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts. <br /><br />The collection is accessible on this site.<br /><br /><strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">Content warning:</span></span></strong><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0"><strong> </strong>Mentions of war, death, and other situations read</span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">ers and listeners may find<span> </span></span></span><span class="TextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0" xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW158174635 BCX0">distressing.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW158174635 BCX0"> </span><br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Tith, Vera T. and William A. Oral History Interview, 1993. UML 16. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml16</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith oral history interview (partial) transcript, 1993
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cambodian Americans
Electricians
Elementary school teachers
Genocide--Cambodia
Lowell (Mass.)
Oral history
Refugees--Cambodia
Description
An account of the resource
The partial transcript of an oral history interview conducted by Sheila L. Kirschbaum with Vera Thong Tith and William An Tith. Topics covered include but are not limited to Vera and William's children, their lives in Cambodia before they left, living and working in a Thailand refugee camp, resettling in the United States, and their lives now in Lowell, Massachusetts.
A full and complete transcript is also available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tith, Vera T.
Tith, William A.
Kirschbaum, Sheila L.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Tith, Vera T. and Tith, William A. Oral History Interview, 1993
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
10 p.; 21.6 x 28
Language
A language of the resource
English
Khmer
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
uml16_93.7_i001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
1990-1999
Cambodians
Demonstration School
Documents