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UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY
CENTER FOR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INFORMANT: JACQUELINE MOLONEY
INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI
KALE CONNERTY
DATE: 2/11/2016
J=JACKIE
A=ALI
K=KALE
A: Okay. This is interview with Jacqueline Moloney on February 11, 2016. And thanks again
Jackie for being here with us.
J: It’s great to be here.
K: Okay. So I guess I’ll just start with asking you about the Foundation, The Indochinese Refuge
Foundation. Do you know how and why it was established in Lowell?
J: Yes. Actually the Founders of the Indochinese Self-Help Foundation, one of them was a
member of the faculty here. His name was Hai Pho, and his wife’s name was Lan Pho. And they
were from Vietnam. And they had family in Vietnam during the fall of Vietnam, and were
instrumental in trying to create a kind of what they called at the time, Mutual Assistance
Associations to enable refugees who were fleeing from Southeast Asia to support each other in
the U.S. So they were very involved in the Refugee Resettlement Movement and they created
that Foundation to do that work.
K: Do you know what year that was?
J: What year they founded the Foundation? I’m trying to think of when I started working for
them. So I would say, I could give you roughly the late seventies, but I don’t have the actual
date.
K: And when did you start working there?
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�J: About 79.
K: 79? (J: Umhm) Okay.
A: So you started right at the very beginning Jackie?
J: It was pretty close to the beginning. I was their second Executive Director.
A: Okay.
J: And the first one, I don’t think she lasted that long. It was really hard work and there were a
lot of cultural differences in the way that you know, even for me when I took on that job I had
to make a lot of adjustments in the way that I thought about running a non-profit that surprised
me in my first couple of weeks there. And it quickly became a labor of love for me. And I knew,
and maybe because they had learned from the first director that they had, that it didn’t work at
all because she wanted to do things in a certain way and they knew that would not work with
this refugee population, which honestly we can talk about in a minute, surprised me. I mean
these were people who were being resettled in Lowell in very large numbers, very irresponsible
way. They were being dropped in the city. The resettlement agency who was resettling them,
it wasn’t the Indochinese Self-Help Group, but there were different resettlement agencies
across the country who were, they would be paid $500.00 a person to resettle a refugee. Now
in some places, you know, like in the Mid-West there were a lot of small towns. They would
take that money in the church say, and help a family to resettle in you know, wherever, Idaho.
So that was one model.
In a place like Lowell unfortunately there was a resettlement agency that would take many,
many families, take their money and place them in very inadequate housing with no training,
no ESL, no support services, you know, to the point where we were finding people. I would get
calls from the hospital or police and say, “We just picked up this family. They have no shoes.
They don’t speak a word of English. It’s the middle of winter. They’re walking on Merrimack
Street with no shoes on. What are you doing about that?” So we had to develop a pretty, you
know large scale, very fast-responding mobilize the community to care for this group of
refugees that were basically dumped in the city. And the city was not prepared for it. The
schools were not prepared. The hospitals were not prepared. There were no translators, no
interpreters anywhere.
And so that was, that was my first job. I rang the first round of interpreters in the city of Lowell
providing ESL classes and then where we could you know, helping families to resettle and you
know, distributing goods that we were collecting to the families themselves.
K: Those were the main services then?
J: Those were it, yah.
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�K: So during your time there, there was the Indochinese Self-Help Project, correct?
J: Yes.
K: So was that a separate function of the IRF?
J: So the IRF was broader than just Lowell. In fact a lot of their work was in Boston. So you
know I honestly didn’t have as much to do with them. They got funding, this Indochinese
Refugees Foundation got funding to do the Self-Help Project from the Resettlement Agency.
K: So the Self-Help Project is what offered those services?
J: Yes.
K: Okay.
A: And the IRF was, the Headquarters was not based in Lowell?
J: Honestly the, I wonder if the (--) It was a Board. A lot of the members were from Boston and
they would hold their meetings where we were housed, which was the International Institute.
But they had other meetings that I didn’t always go to all their meetings Mehmed. So they
might have had some in Boston.
A: Okay.
J: So they were a broader base, more of the, I would say established, you know, well
established. They weren’t refugees. These were Southeast Asians who were well established
who created this Foundation. You know, they would hold, I remember them holding fashion
shows, fundraisers, but it was really to help build their own ethnic community until this crisis
happened. And that’s when they got funding to help intervene in the city of Lowell.
K: As Director what were your main duties with the Self-Help Project?
J: Well it was everything. The chief, cook and bottle washer. I mean there were really only I (-) There were probably six of us. And so one was to run the, set up and run the ESL Program and
to get those refugees to the point where they could actually go into the Adult Education
Program. So you think about Fred Abisi and Adult Education, which they were totally opened to
helping these refugees, but they didn’t have the resources either. They were not prepared for
people who were you know, Laotian, Cambodian whose you know first language, the alphabet
didn’t even look like ours. I mean you come into Lowell now, it’s so much more diverse and
people coming from so many different countries, Lowell was really not prepared for this
generation of refugees that came here. So we set up that first ESL class. That was a big deal.
We did work with companies trying to get job placements. And then I had this whole group of
interpreters. And their work was to go to the hospitals to you know, I mean there were battles
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�over everything going into the schools. There are a lot of cultural issues where you know, a
woman would go into the birthing center at Lowell General, and Lowell General was not
equipped to deal with the cultural traditions of these women coming from Cambodia, or from
Laos. And the interpreters, I mean they could barely speak English you know. I remember my
first Cambodian interpreter really barely, barely could speak English. And they were the most
challenged community, because of course of the genocide that had happened. So there
weren’t a lot of educated Cambodian refugees who could even read and write.
So we had a lot of challenges to overcome. It certainly changed their way of looking, changed
my way of looking at life for sure. You know the things that you take for granted, and dealing
with people who were traumatized by the wars in their countries. You know the civil wars as
well as the Vietnam War. And so there’s a lot of suspicion that we had to overcome, a lot of
worry about an agency. It took me a long time to earn the trust and respect of those people.
And that was the biggest surprise for me to be honest. I just thought, well I’m here. I’ve got
English language for you. I can help you find a job. You know, we might have some silverware
for your kitchen. Why would you not welcome me into your home? Well trust me, they did
not. It took me a long (--) But I really worked at it. And you know things like, and of course to
add to it, at the time I was pregnant.
Well there are certain customs which were unbeknown to me. There’s a whole hierarchy in
their cultures of you know, gratefully teachers are very important in their culture, women was
not. You know that I would go literally into the family home and the women would sit behind
the men. And here I as a woman who was pregnant no less, we’re pregnant and you were just
supposed to stay home and not even go outdoors, and I’m this pregnant woman walking into
their home trying to help them. And they would, some of them would take it like she’s trying to
tell me what to do. So I had to be very careful and very respectful, and really learn the
protocol. Things like who goes out of the room first? That was my first confusing you know,
cultural episode when you know, my first meeting I would just walk out the door. And then I
realized I was really upsetting some of the elders and I learned how to gracefully bow out of the
room, or let them go first. If they were the elder you always give them the respect. If they
hand you something you take it with two hands. You don’t just take it with one. So all of these
small things to show them the respect coming from what they had come from was a big deal.
So it was everything you know. We had our first, the first death of that community. I
remember we were about six months into this, so I was in pretty good shape with the
community at that point. We had delivered a lot of food and silverware and done a lot of ESL,
and gotten jobs and intervened in a lot of emergency room people calling, saying, “You’ve got
to get someone down here. These people are all [unclear].” So we settled a lot of those kind of
things. So we had great trust at that point from the community. And we had a death, and it
was a young man I think he was probably 32, or 33. And there was a belief among the Lao
Hmong people who were more, much more tribal, but they were a whole group of people in
Laos that had been displaced because they had helped the CIA. So this was this whole group of
people who were taken from their very tribal culture, ethnic culture, and dropped in the city.
It’s very, very difficult. And this young man died and they felt it was from his home sickness.
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�And they said that they would will themselves to death in a way, and that’s how they felt this
young man died.
Now of course here we go again. How do you bury him? They have all of these burial rituals. I
can remember bringing in the funeral directors into the International Institute and the city
health inspectors, and we had to meet and figure out how we were going to bury this young
man and respect their cultures, because it was even more traumatic that he had died this way.
And if we didn’t bury him the right way his spirit would wander forever. So that was on
everyone’s head, but there were all these city rules about you know, you have to cremate the
body first, not cremate it but what is it when you take the blood out of people? Do you know?
A: The embalming process?
J: Embalming. Yes, and when the embalming happened, that’s what it was. Oh boy trying to
resolve that! And to everyone’s credit in this city, you know, when I really learned to love this
city, because people figured it out and they made it work, and they made it right for that family.
And that fellow was buried the right way. And everybody changed everything that they were
doing to accommodate that. One small person’s life, you know I don’t think that would happen
everywhere. I know it wouldn’t. So it just, it really made me appreciate the compassion of the
people in this city and their inclination to really welcome people from diverse backgrounds, and
to try to find solutions rather than (--) I think in some cities they would have been so
overwhelmed. They would have said (--) We see it happening now and I understand it, in cities
in Europe where they’re saying stop. We can’t take any more of these refugees. You know, this
is overwhelming our community. Well this community was overwhelmed but people stepped
up. The school system stepped up. They hired teachers eventually. It took us some time, but
you know it was a challenging time.
K: You’re still working in Lowell here thirty years later. Do you think that working for the IRF
had any impact on your decision to stay involved in the Lowell Community?
J: Oh absolutely. Like I said, it was a life altering experience for me. And I was only there a
little over a year, but I never lost my tie with that community you know. It was just a
phenomenal experience. And I just described to you how it just changed my view of this city
and what the city is capable of doing, and has helped me to keep faith and focused. And having
been involved now in a lot of non-profits like Lowell General Hospital, now I’m on the board,
then I was taking people to the emergency room. Now I’m on the board. But I can tell you I
know that Lowell General Hospital really honors the diversity of people that come there, and
they’re well cared for. Lowell Community Health is there for that reason. And I just, I still see
how you know, this community embraced that community and really made it special for them.
I remember (--) Who? There was a special thing every year. It was before the Farmer’s Market
in downtown, but they would have these monthly whatever it is, some show or something
downtown Lowell, and they were so kind and reached out the Southeast Asian Community.
And these people were hurting. You know they left their countries with nothing. So culturally
like they didn’t have many of their clothes or their instruments; they didn’t even know who was
5
�the singer from there, how to find a singer, or dance, or how to do the dance. So we were kind
of coddling together the first Cambodian Dance Troupe.
K: That’s wonderful.
J: And I remember them performing in JFK Center and it was just really hard to pull that off. I
remember how hard they worked. And they’re calling their friend in Connecticut and their
friend in California. People are trying to ship stuff here. We were trying to coddle together
enough little outfits for the women to do the dance, and you know the different instruments.
And we coddled together that first group and there was such great pride in the community.
And I think for them it was also just bringing their culture here and having it back and be part of
who they were was very, very important for them. So it was nice to be a part of it.
A: Could you speak a little bit about the jobs program that the IRF had when you were there, if
you remember any details? Do you remember any?
J: I don’t. I know that we worked with a lot of companies and did entry level training. The ESL
was big, but beyond that I don’t really remember.
A: Okay.
J: Did you remember it?
A: Nope. I mean we found some of the companies in the photographs. Now I’ve forgotten. I
don’t know if you remember it.
K: Just kind of like linen work, or just working in like clothing factories, or anything like that.
There are a lot of pictures of people working.
J: Yeah, and you know, so we would arrange the transportation. And what’s funny to me is
now when I drive home I drive down Westford Street where of course a lot of the Southeast
Asians settled in the highlands. And you still see the buses, the vans going up that street and
dropping workers off at different plants. So you know, again, the plants were great. Of course
they loved these employees because they were very hard working.
K: So the building where you worked was 79 High Street, correct?
J: Yes, the International Institute.
K: What was that building like? Was it, is it still there? Is it, it changed right?
J: Well it’s still there. It got sold to a private residence. The International Institute moved. I
don’t even know where they are now. Do they even have a place in Lowell?
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�A: Yes, because Derek Mitchell was in charge of it until recently.
J: Yes.
A: I think they’re at 144 Merrimack Street.
J: Okay.
A: But the building itself, what was?
J: It was a big old house. It was, you know, the International Institute was downstairs, but it
was perfect for us because they had a lot of space, actually classroom space. And there was an
apartment in the building, and they needed someone to take care of it. So we had our first
interpreter, the Cambodian interpreter who lived in the building. So it was great for them too.
So it was great shelter. It was a great building. There was a big beautiful opened room. And I
still remember the, on the cultural, what we had to overcome. You know, probably at this point
we were four months, it was before that death, and many of the people had not seen a monk
for a year or two and they were really desperate to see a monk. So we, they connected with
friends and somewhere in Connecticut, they had some other group in Connecticut and the
monk came. So we announced the monk. I felt like there must have been 250 people in this
room where there should have been 100 people. And the same thing happened. And then I
was standing there and now I’m eight months pregnant, and everyone in the room dropped to
the floor in honor of the monk, you know the bow and hitting the floor and prostrating
themselves. And I’m standing there and I’m thinking it’s me and the monk. I don’t know what
to do. I’m not going to drop to the floor because I’ll never get up. And you know it wasn’t my
religion. I wasn’t disrespectful to him, but I didn’t know what else to do. Nobody coached me
on that one Kale. I didn’t really know what to do. But we had a lot of moments like that, that
were so special and people were just I mean crying and so happy to have a monk among them
again. And to have their traditions back, and to be able to say their prayers, and it was very,
very nice to be a part of that. So that building really lent itself to those meetings, a special
place.
K: What were your reasons for leaving the IRF?
J: I was pregnant.
K: Yah, that’s what I figured.
J: I just mentioned that, and I was having my second daughter. You know, I never intended to
stay there. I didn’t know what I was getting myself into when I took on that job. I probably
wouldn’t have done it if I had known, because I knew they needed a longer term solution. But I
had hired a couple of people who were very involved as the teachers, and one of them in social
work is Carol Keirstead who kind of took over.
7
�K: She took over?
J: Yah. So that was great. It’s amazing the way things happen, but it’s funny they were very
concerned when I was leaving. And I was in labor and they did not want me to leave. And you
know, at this point my office would always have like fifteen, sixteen of the elder men because
they decided everything as a community. And they would sit in my office every day and they’d
you know, bring me all like ginger root. I was supposed to eat ginger root and this big (egg?).
And Alise Martin was a teacher then too. Do you know Alise?
A: Yeah Alise.
K: Umhm.
J: Yah, that worked at Middlesex and she was pregnant too. It was just unusual. And they
didn’t want me to leave. And I’m like, “I have to leave. I’m in labor. I’m going. Bye, I’m
leaving.” And I got to the hospital and I had my daughter. And the nurse came in to me the
next morning and said, “Excuse me Ms. Moloney, but you’re going to have to help us. There
are all these people out in the waiting room and they won’t leave!” [All laugh] The same elders
and their families out in the waiting room and they wanted to talk to me. They wanted to talk
to me. I just had this little (--) I’m like we don’t do that here. We’re not going to talk, but I had
to go talk to them and tell them I’m okay and I will come back. [Laughing] And you know, it
was just again, because they knew at the hospital too what had been going on because I had
been helping them with different patients that were being admitted there. So that’s why I left.
K: So over your time there it seems like it became a lot easier, they warmed up to you. What
do you think was the most important thing that you did in kind of helping build that
relationship?
J: You know I’m a big believer as you know, maybe you’ve heard about my feelings about
students is to empower people to have control over their lives. And I think that self-help
project blossomed beautifully and it was because you know, having those elders in the room
and helping them to build their own community, get their own temple, build their own dance
groups, their own churches, you know, to take care of themselves and become their own
leaders. I think that’s what it was all about. [Repeats] That’s what it was all about. And I
believe that Lowell is a testament to how you do refugee resettlement correctly, because so
many, that community is so strong here. They’re such a strong part of this community and look
at where the first Cambodian State Legislator in the country. I mean that is a lot to be proud of
for this city. And I just, so when I look around me and most of the South Asians don’t have any
idea who I am, or what happened back then, it doesn’t matter to me at all. It was an honor to
be a part of it.
A: Two more questions Jackie.
J: Sure.
8
�A: One, any stories about coworkers, colleagues, special people that were there with you
during that time?
J: Absolutely. The interpreters were amazing. They were amazing people. And you know, they
came, they were very different. We had a fellow who was a Vietnamese. He was a refugee in
some ways, but he is a very well-educated man who had a wonderful family. So he wasn’t
coming out of poverty, didn’t live in (--) He had a family to come to here. [Ja] Pho, he was Lan
and Hai, he was Lan Pho’s father.
A: Okay.
J: But he was such a gentleman. He didn’t want to have any special treatment. So when I met
him I didn’t know he was Lan’s father. He wanted me to treat him like any other interpreter,
and he wasn’t like any other interpreter. This was a very distinguished scholar, wonderful man,
so well educated, and he just wanted to be you know, acted like the other interpreters. And of
course it took us about a month, but gradually I let him know I really needed him to do more
than be just (--) I needed advice. I needed guidance. And so he was very special. And the
other interpreter [So Chet Urk] was a Cambodian interpreter. He’s the one who really could
barely speak English, had grown up as a farmer, but worked so hard to help his people. Just
didn’t sleep, didn’t sleep. Twenty-four seven these people were on the road, they were on call
and they were needed, and we needed them to do it. And their community needed them to do
it. And you know, I know, I’ve met So Chet’s son like as a student here at the University. And I
hadn’t been in touch with So Chet for twenty years. You know, and to see his son be a student
here, that’s a pretty special feeling. That’s a pretty special feeling. They were great people.
K: So do you see any similarities in your job today as Chancellor as with working with for the
IRF?
J: I do always, everything I’ve ever done in my career to me it’s about building community, and
a community that thinks about making the world a better place. So certainly in that sense yes.
I think that that job really sensitized me to what it means to help people who are in trauma,
who have been traumatized and who need really emergency, immediate, deep care. And but
the biggest part of that is that it has to be done with respect. So I feel like, you know, certainly
at the university we have students who come here who are in that situation, who need that
help. As a community I feel like my greatest pride in UMass Lowell is that we are certainly, you
know, it goes without saying we’re an excellent academic institution, right? We are excellent in
research that we do. We provide excellent academic programs. But I think what gives me the
greatest pride (--) My greatest pride is that we’re a compassionate community. We are
compassionate to each other. Students, every day, every day I hear a story of students helping
other students. That gives me great pride. Every day I hear about our staff. Somebody, you
know, their child has cancer, or they’ve gone through a divorce, or they lost a parent, or
whatever happened, people reach across and help each other here. And that is what I think
9
�makes this place so unique and so special, and so extraordinary. So you know, to the extent
that I brought some of that because of that experience, all to the good.
A: Well thank you Jackie very much.
K: That you so much.
M: That helpful I hope?
K: Yah it was.
A: Wonderful.
M: Good. Good. A special group.
Interview ends
jw
10
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jacqueline Moloney oral history interview transcript, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
Description
An account of the resource
The transcript of an oral history with Jacqueline Moloney, current Chancellor of the University of Massachusetts Lowell, on her experiences as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member during the late 1970s. Topics include programs, government policy, Southeast Asian refugees, and Lowell, Massachusetts.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Moloney, Jacqueline
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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10 p., 21.5 x 28
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
uml4_16.01_i002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
Cambodians
Documents
Highlands
Hmong
Indochinese Self-Help Program
International Institute of New England
Laotians
Vietnamese
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jacqueline Moloney oral history interview audio recording, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
Description
An account of the resource
The audio recording of an oral history with Jacqueline Moloney, current Chancellor of the University of Massachusetts Lowell, on her experiences as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member during the late 1970s. Topics include programs, government policy, Southeast Asian refugees, and Lowell, Massachusetts.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Moloney, Jacqueline
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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1 audio recording; 00:28:13
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
uml4_16.01_i001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
Cambodians
Highlands
Hmong
Indochinese Self-Help Program
International Institute of New England
Laotians
Sound recordings
Vietnamese
-
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acd40c7986f27babb1bd31886abcd5b3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carol Keirstead oral history interview audio recording, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Adoption
Adoptive parents
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee camps
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
Description
An account of the resource
The audio recording of an oral history with Carol Keirstead on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the IRF, sponsoring a family, and adopting a child from Cambodia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Keirstead, Carol
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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1 audio recording; 00:45:44
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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uml4_16.02_i001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
BASF Systems Corporation
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association
Cambodians
Centralville
International Institute of New England
Laotians
Lowell Public Schools
Moore Street School
Philippine Refugee Processing Center
Sound recordings
The Grove
Vietnamese
Wang Laboratories
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PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INFORMANT: CAROL KEIRSTEAD
INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI
KALE CONNERTY
DATE: MARCH 5, 2016
C=CAROL
A=ALI
K=KALE
A: So this is interview with Carol Keirstead. Is that how you say it, Keirstead?
C: Keirstead, yup.
A: Keirstead, on March 5, 2016. And Carol thanks very much for willing to share some
time for us.
C: Excited to do it.
A: Good, great.
K: All right. Well I’ll just ask the first question. What do you know about the
circumstances under which the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] was founded?
C: Um, what I know about its founding was Hai Ba Pho and his wife Lan Pho were
Vietnamese refugees who settled in the country, and they wanted to establish an
organization that was really, ultimately they wanted it sort of for and by the refugee
community. So it was formed at a Mutual Assistance Association, which if memory
serves me correctly was really to be governed by members of the refugee community. So,
and his, his dream which actually came to fruition was to have the refugee community
actually you know, set up their own service organizations. So that’s what I recall about
that a few years ago. [All laugh]
K: When did you start working for the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]?
1
�C: In 1982.
K: Okay. And how long were you working there?
C: Two years.
K: Okay. Where had you previously been working?
C: The year before that I was with the university. I managed a Masters ESL Program for
teachers in Lowell Public Schools. It was a federally funded project. So we trained
“mainstream” classroom teachers to be able to effectively instruct English language
learners. So I did that for a year.
K: While you (--)
A: I’m sorry. And Carol how did you get, get into this field overall?
C: So way back when Ed Moloney and I worked together for CETA, which was the, you
know, federally funded sort of Skills in Employment Service Agency. And for whatever
reason you know at the time when refugees were coming into the city I just sort of took it
upon myself to reach out and do as best I could to serve that community through that
program. And so at one point he said to me, “Carol, you know, Jackie is going to be
leaving her position and I think you’d be great for it.” And I said, “Well I, you know,
I’m not so sure about that,” you know, but anyway. So he encouraged me to apply and I
did and got the job. So.
A: And where were you working for CETA previously like geographically?
C: In Lowell.
A: In Lowell, and where in Lowell?
C: Yup, it was up on Appleton Street. You know where the court is now?
A: Oh 89 Appleton, (C: You got it) The old Post Office?
C: Yup.
A: Okay. All right, that makes sense. And go ahead Kale.
K: How did you see the services offered by the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]
change while you were there? Did you see any change? You were only there for two
years, but.
C: Right. So in terms of change the actual services didn’t change much that I recall.
Again that was a long time ago. You know what changed over time was either one, the
2
�nature of the population, or the size of the population that we were serving. I mean when
we first started refugees were being resettled at a pretty rapid rate in this city. So we
were pretty, it was a pretty busy place. Yah, so over time I think it was the nature of the
population that we were serving, not so much the services.
A: And tell us about those changes and the different people coming and going.
C: Yah, so you know it would vary. It was Vietnamese, Cambodian and Lao that we
served and it just changed over time. The Vietnamese community was much smaller that
we served ultimately just by sheer numbers, and the Cambodian community kind of
started to excel. And there were a fair number of Lao families that we served as well.
And that over time, probably even after I left, just kind of flattened and the Khmer
population just kept, you know, people just kept relocating.
A: And why do you think the Cambodian population kind of grew where the other ones
stayed maybe smaller?
C: You know I think it was just a phenomenon of having a solid sort of community who
then would reach out to family, because Lowell at the time had very good employment
situation. So we could get people jobs pretty easily.
A: Um.
C: So the word would get out and family would come and resettle. You know at the time
there were pockets all across the country for different communities. Like the Hmong
were in Minnesota. So for whatever reason communities just began to sort of invite and
encourage people to come and resettle.
A: Where were you running the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] out of when you
took over?
C: 79 High Street.
A: And tell us about that building, what was going on there.
C: Yah, so the first floor was the International Institute, and then the second floor was us,
very small office space. And then we had, there was like an annex, which was a very
large room where we could hold functions and hold classes, and stuff like that. So it was
great because the International Institute was right below us. So we could collaborate a lot
on serving people.
K: What do you think were the most essential services you offered? What was the most
important?
C: Hm. Well the obvious ones right would be employment services and language
services. We had ESL Employment and Cultural Orientation Services. So those were
3
�critical. People needed jobs, but I think overall it was the welcoming, culturally
sensitive, supportive, proactive sort of approach that we took to just you know, helping
people to resettle in a new community.
So we’d do things like you know, have big household drives to have people donate all
kinds of things, because the refugee community they just needed so much. They were in
pretty substandard housing by in large. I mean I recall at the time there were a couple of
prominent landlords and the housing was pretty substandard. So you know, that was (--)
So we did what we did and more.
A: Yah. Who were some of the landlords around town that were notable?
C: It was George [Chambros], [Chambers], [Chamberos]?
A: Chamberas?
C: Yah, was the biggie.
A: Okay. How about Mr. Saab?
C: No, he wasn’t, that I knew of he wasn’t somebody that we encountered.
A: He might have gravitated over to the commercial stuff by that point.
C: Yah probably.
A: Because I know he had a lot in the, maybe in the 60s and 70s. I wasn’t sure.
C: And I sponsored a family while I was in my role.
A: Yah?
C: And the family I sponsored was a very, a family you know, non-literate and you know
from the Province. And so I had to work over a year’s time with them to help them get
housing and get settled and all that stuff. I’ll never forget the first time we found an
apartment for them. It was a decent apartment over in Centralville. And I was helping
them unpack, and you know getting everything settled. And we had all kinds of things
donated for them. And you know it was just so remarkable to step back and understand
what the experience was like for them, right. So a hairdryer, like they were just so
fascinated with a hairdryer. They thought it was to cook meat right.
A: Oh, to cook meat?
C: Right, and then you know, we were helping them put stuff away and they were
putting all the meat in the drawers and all of the appliances in the refrigerator. I mean
just you know, they had no idea.
4
�K: Yah.
C: So it was quite the learning experience. And a lot of the work that I did was advocacy
work, particularly with the school department, because at the time they were enrolling I
think it was like fifty students a week at one point.
A: Wow.
K: Wow.
C: And you know, we were hearing, you know there was one case I’ll never forget.
There was a girl who probably had PTSD. No, I know she had PTSD, and they didn’t
know what to do with her. So they kept her home. They didn’t serve her. So a lot of the
work we did had to be sort of advocacy oriented in working with other organizations to
help them understand the population and help them do right by them.
A: Yah. What made you decide that you wanted to sponsor that one family?
C: Well my thing was to sort of walk the talk in what I do. So I just wanted to do that as
part of you know, not just get paid for the work but the refugee community would
actually step up and help out.
K: Okay. So what were all of your duties and stuff? You already talked about advocacy
work, but what else were [unclear]?
C: So I supervised the staff that we had. We had bilingual bicultural staff. I oversaw all
of the programming. Oversaw all of the paperwork with Office of Refugee Resettlement,
you know, had to oversee all of the records and stuff like that.
A: And that was a federal agency?
C: Yes. And so you know, all of the administrative things that go along with an
administrative job, which I didn’t have a clue how to do until I got this job. So it was
really learning on the job, but it was great. And I’d say, you know, a fair amount of it
was really outreach to the community and helping you know, doing cultural orientations
out in the community. Really just helping develop understanding as much as I could
about, you know, the communities that were coming into Lowell.
K: Was there anything while you were on your job that you found unexpected, like any
tasks that you had to do that you weren’t prepared for, well not prepared for but just
weren’t expecting?
C: Yah, firing staff was hard. [Laughs]
5
�A: Yah, and without going into the specific persons what was the kind of nature of the
work that made it difficult?
C: It was a staff person that was, you know, I adored him and he was well respected in
the community, but just didn’t do his job. So you know, at some point you have to
address things like that and it’s hard, particularly when you’re a white female and the
person is a member of the community. It’s very difficult. So that was my probably
biggest challenge.
A: Was there any kind of fallout with the community from that?
C: Yes, this individual actually, yes there was.
A: Okay.
K: How many people do you think you helped over there, how many families?
C: Oh Lord. You know I’m sorry. I wouldn’t even know how to, I wouldn’t know how
to do that. You probably have the record. I just don’t even (--) I know we had to report
on it every month. We had to submit monthly reports.
A: Yah. No, that’s fine.
K: We actually might have those in our archives, yah.
C: That would be interesting to see, yah.
A: Could you describe the community as they were coming into Lowell? And you
talked about the, you know, kind of issues with understanding kind of technology and
things like that, which they had never seen before.
C: Right, right. So I guess it was really recognizing that what they had to become
accustomed to and what they had to learn was going to take time. And that they just
needed a lot of support to acculturating and learning what they needed to learn, and in the
employment setting. So that was a whole other thing. So my job as director that was my
(--) We had ESL teachers, and we had cultural specialists, but my job was to find jobs for
people. That was part of my role. So you know, I had to make sure that the work place
could accommodate people who were, you know, had various levels of education and,
you know, could handle expectations in the work place and stuff like that. So that was,
that was a challenge.
A: So tell us what companies were out kind of that you connected with?
C: I remember a big one was BASF. (A: Umhm) So there were a lot of electronic firms
at that time and medical supply firms where all folks would have to do is piecework, put
stuff together. And it was a pretty good job in the tech industry. So Wang, some people
6
�could get in. Not a lot, but some people could get into Wang. But there were a couple.
BASF I remember and it will come to me after you leave. [Laughs]
A: That’s fine.
C: There are a few sort of you know, our go-tos.
A: Where was BASF? Was that in Nashua?
C: Bedford.
A: Oh Bedford, okay. Good. And do you remember any kind of stories connected with
people getting jobs and you know, perceptions on that and feelings from the community
response?
C: Can you say more about that? What are you, what are you thinking?
A: Yes. Just I mean did, um, you know, do you remember any particular stories where
you know, you got somebody a job and it really kind of changed their outlook, or their
family’s outlook?
C: I’m sure. I just can’t at the top of my head recall. You know I’m sure there were
many, but yah.
A: Yah. What was the, what’s your perception on the city’s reception of these
immigrants?
C: I would say one of the reasons we ended up with such a large community is because
by in large the city stepped up. They didn’t always do the right thing, but by in large the
city really stepped up I think. You know, a lot of the churches were heavily involved.
Eliot Church, Saint Patrick’s was a huge supporter. Yah, so churches played a big role in
really helping refugee communities. So I would say yah, Lowell was pretty, Lowell did a
pretty good job.
A: Is there any way to find like what that could be attributed to?
C: So who would have been there at the time? Gee, I can’t even tell you. George
Tsapatsaris was the Superintendent of Schools.
A: Okay. Did you guys have a relationship with the school department?
C: I did, you know, it was sometimes heated because I did go to bat for people.
A: Okay.
C: So sometimes I’d be told you know, tell that Keirstead to cease and desist. [Laughs]
7
�A: Why? Over what issues?
C: You know, I (--) This is who I am. I don’t like injustice. Where there’s injustice I do
whatever I can do. So when I saw cases where kids weren’t being served well, like a
classroom was set up in a bathroom for a group of Laotian kids. I said, “Uh huh, not
okay.” Um, that student I remember going to bat for because she had some you know,
she was dealing with some emotional trauma and they kept her home. They wouldn’t
serve her. So it was things like that. I just (--)
A: And I’m sorry, when you said they wouldn’t serve, I originally thought you meant the
family, but you were talking about the school department?
C: School department.
A: Okay, and was that Cambodian?
C: She was Lao I believe this particular girl.
A: Okay.
C: You know how certain people stand out in your mind? Yah, but you know so at the
same time George respected me and I respected him, but I had to just, you know, do that
and he had to push back. So you know.
A: Where was the, which school were the kids in the bathroom originally?
C: The Daley.
A: The Daley? Okay. [Chuckles] All right, and I imagine there was some, I mean,
growing pains from the school department’s perspective right?
C: Oh everybody was out of space and it was, I mean really they were registering like
fifty kids a week. And after I left the Indochinese Refugee Foundation I went to work.
They recruited me for the public school system. So I ran the Southeast Asian Curriculum
Program. And so you know, I then saw it on that end. Yah, I mean. And then I worked
at the, did you hear about the Moore Street School?
A: They Morey?
C: Moore Street?
A: Moore Street School up in the Grove.
C: Yah, so it was really the only segregated publically supported school that had existed
in a very long time. It was all Cambodian kids.
8
�A: Now how did that school become only Cambodians? Had it been closed previously?
C: It was a private catholic that was closed by the Diocese.
A: Okay.
C: So Lowell rented it I guess (A: Okay) and set it up to serve this huge population of
kids they didn’t have a place to put. So that was in existence. I worked there for like a
year with Bob Keegan. He was the principle. He’s since passed away, but um, yah. So
that was an interesting experiment.
A: What was that school like? How would you describe it?
C: So I thought it was wonderful. I mean I get segregation, I get it, but it was a
protected, all about these kids, giving them what they needed in environment. They
didn’t have to deal with being treated whatever. So it was a protected environment and
we could design the program just for them.
A: Um.
C: In fact, have you seen the Southeast Asian book? Probably right?
A: The Jim Higgins photo book?
C: The cover, that’s the Moore Street School.
A: Yah, I, well I just was looking at that book recently and I said, “Where the heck was
this school?” I didn’t know anything about it. (C: Yah) So when you said it I was, yah.
C: Yah, funny.
A: What else can you talk about with that school? What were the programs that you
were running that wouldn’t be found anywhere else?
C: Well it was you know, before it was a bilingual program. So back then we believed
in bilingual education in this state. We don’t anymore by the way. So it was a bilingual
program where kids had native language instruction and ESL. So we could design the
program so that they got their content, you know, in the native language and then had sort
of sheltered English class instruction too. So it was great.
A: What was the building like physically? Was it in a decent shape?
C: It was decent.
A: Okay.
9
�C: Yah, yah, it was okay.
A: No leaky roofs or anything?
C: No, no, it was okay.
A: Okay, good. Um, you talk about Lowell being basically an accommodating
community. Any instances where you remember where it didn’t shine in that area?
C: Housing I would say.
A: And what were the issues there?
C: Really substandard housing. I mean most of the families when I’d go visit, you know,
they’d be roaches all over the walls. They’d be roach paper just like wallpaper, you
know, so just really substandard housing.
A: And did the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] get involved in kind of helping to
change that situation?
C: You know I’m sure we tried. You know we tried to get families into the best housing
situations we could, but there was limited, limited stock so to speak. And you know, it
was a big, it’s a bigger issue than we could take on, because it’s really, it’s you know, it
hasn’t changed. [Laughs]
A: Yah, yah.
C: So.
A: I know there was a group around town I think primarily connected to churches, but
the Ethnic Covenant?
C: Oh my God, yah! Jay. Jay. What was his name? Great group.
A: Okay. Tell us what you know about the group.
C: Oh, [unclear] the dust off the cobwebs. Jay was the gentleman who founded it I
believe. And I remember they authored a paper called “Thirty Pieces of Silver” maybe?
Right, is that is?
A: I think that’s it, yah.
C: Um, so yah, they were a very advocacy oriented group who really I think sought to
speak the truth on behalf of vulnerable populations. Yah, yah, God thank you for
mentioning that.
10
�A: Did the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] have any connection with them?
C: Yah, yah, we, I can’t remember exactly what we did together, but we definitely
collaborated and communicated a lot. Yah, yup.
A: Tell us about the everyday work week at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation].
C: It was, I mean the reason I stayed for two years is because I ate, breathed and slept
right, because it was just nonstop, never ending. It didn’t end at 5:00. So yah, I mean
that was primarily why I had to sort of go to a “more normal job”. It was you know,
doing the administrative stuff and then dealing with things all day long that would come
up; refugees coming in with whatever issues that they had and we would have to figure
out how to help them. So it was doing your regular job and then attending to people’s
needs as they would come through the door, which you never knew what those were
going to be.
A: Jackie told us a little bit about some of the issues that the refugees had with kind of
accessing health services. Do you have any (--)
C: Yes, yah, yes. So I would say a big issue for refugees, and I don’t know what Jackie’s
perspective was, they were very reluctant in a way to access American medical services.
And we often would have to (--) Oh, I just thought about this other case. Oh my God.
A: Yah, tell us about that case.
C: I’m just getting emotional. Sorry.
A: That’s okay. That’s okay. Sorry.
C: Wow, I didn’t expect that one. [Crying]
A: That’s okay, take a few minutes.
C: So there was this day, and in walked a woman with her daughter in her arms and her
daughter was almost lifeless. So Chulathy was her name. And so we arranged to have
her taken by ambulance to the hospital and I ended up following her for quite some time
and they could never figure out what was wrong with her. And you know part of me is
feeling like I should have done more, but whatever. And she just like languished in the
system and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with her. She was dying and I’ll
never (--) They let her go home at some point and somewhat later I heard that she just
died in Lowell High School. She just died. So, I mean and I tried to work with the
family and it was just you know, a lot of Southeast Asians believe in spiritual even
sometimes sort of ghosts like things right. And so translating between that belief system
and western medicine is nearly impossible. And then you got the language barrier in
between. So I, you know, I worked with the family and I worked with you know, I’d go
11
�to visit Chulathy and she just always, she was always doing this. It hurt, it hurt, it hurt,
and they could never figure out what she had.
A: So she was always holding her fist to her chest?
C: Yup, like this and they never could figure out what she had. So, sorry.
A: Other issues on medical or health access?
C: There weren’t the language and cultural resources that of course there are now. So it
was really, really difficult. Yah, I didn’t even think of that. It was really difficult to get
adequate care for people because of the language barrier and the cultural barriers. Yah.
A: So talk about the language barriers in general?
C: Well I didn’t speak any of the language [laughs]. So I always had to rely on you
know, my folks to translate. And so when refugees would go do whatever they had to do
they would always have to find somebody, oftentimes the younger kid in the family, and
rely on that person as their translator which right, is not ideal. So yah, it was, it was really
tough. And that was a lot of the work that our staff had to do, which they weren’t paid to
do really. I mean their jobs were not to be translators, but there you go right.
K: Umhm.
A: Yah, yah. Any funny stories about IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]
workplace?
C: Yah, so this may not want to be (--) [Laughs] You don’t have to stop it but there were
a lot of funny things, but I’ll never forget this one time. Alise Martin, do you know Alise
Martin?
A: Yah.
C: She was the ESL teacher.
A: Oh she worked at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]?
C: Yah.
A: Okay. That’s another interview.
K: We have her [unclear].
C: And I think she was the teacher at this time. We had a couple while I was there, but I
went down to the classroom just to check on things. And we often had people donate
goods. So we’d have plastic bags all along the side of the classroom. So I went down
12
�and looked in the classroom and there was a big ruckus going on. And I’m like
everybody is laughing and you know, I’m like what’s going on? So what happened was
somebody had donated things and there was a box on tampons in there. And the Ref,
whoever found them thought they were firecrackers. So they’re all trying to light
tampons. [All laugh] That was a fun one, yah.
A: Other kind of workplace issues at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]?
C: You know we always could have used more. It was always a scramble to have
enough resources to do what we needed to do. And I don’t remember at the time. I
remember getting some grants here and there, some small grants to do different things,
but I can’t recall what they were.
A: Yah. Now you worked with the federal government. Did you work with any state
agencies?
C: We, I’m trying to think. Well there was the Office of Refugee Resettlement in
Massachusetts. So every state has its own.
A: Okay.
C: Yah, yah.
A: Okay. So the office you primarily dealt with was kind of, they controlled the funds
that the federal government (--)
C: Right.
A: Okay I see.
C: They were sort of a pass through.
A: Do you remember any individuals or issues with the state?
C: No. I mean like any, I’ve managed many of those things since then. Like there are
always challenges with it, but you know.
A: Yah, regular bureaucracy stuff.
C: Yah, right, right, nothing that I can recall out of the ordinary.
A: Good.
K: Did you see funding change while you were there at all?
C: I don’t remember. Really I don’t remember.
13
�K: Did working with the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] change your perspective
on anything, like such as minority groups, non-profit work?
C: It was life changing for me.
K: Really.
C: Because when I left there I went to work for the school department and then I went to
work overseas in a Refugee Program. So I never would have done that if I hadn’t had
this opportunity. And then I adopted somebody from Cambodia. So it really was life
changing for me.
K: Now where did you work overseas?
C: In the Philippines, in the Philippine Refugee Camp.
K: And was that the camp where Cambodians and other folks from Southeast Asia were
coming?
C: A lot. There were several camps in Thailand and then there was PRPC in the
Philippines, and there were a couple of smaller ones in Indonesia.
A: Okay.
C: When I went the largest population were Amerasians.
A: From mainly from Vietnam?
C: Umhm.
A: Okay. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in that project?
C: So when I was at the Refugee Foundation I was able to make contacts. I also worked
at Middlesex Community College in between, that’s right. So I worked at Lowell Public
Schools. Then I went to Middlesex and help set up the new campus, because what they
wanted to do in setting up the new campus with Molly Sheehy was my, person I worked
with, was to set up what they called a Resource Center, because they wanted to provide
outreach services to the Southeast Asians in setting up the new campus. So I did that for
two years. So through my work at the Foundation and through Middlesex I made
contacts with the U.S. State Department. And when I decided I wanted to try it I just
called and said, “How do you do that?” And the women said, “Well here’s what you do.”
And so I applied to this organization and they flew me down for an interview. And
within a month I was gone. So yah, it was great.
A: Good. So tell us about the camps. There was one major camp for?
14
�C: The one I worked in was one major camp, but there were many camps and operation
at that time in Thailand. So a lot of Refugees from Lowell, some would have come
through the camp I worked at, some would have come through Thailand.
A: From Khao-I-Dang
C: Yup, Phanat Nikhom, Khao-I-Dang, yup.
A: And what was the camp that you worked at in the Philippines?
C: It was called PRPC, Philippine Refugee Processing Center. Bad name! What are we,
cows? Yah, anyway. So it was a really large camp. We serviced I think at any one time
there were about 100,000 people there. It was nine kilometers long. It was along a ridge.
It was beautiful, gorgeous, and there were several international organizations there, like
World Relief. ICMC was the group I worked for. There were many, many, many. So
my group ran the, what they called the Pass Program, which was for kids 11.5 - 16 who
were coming to the states. So it was like a school to get them ready for school here. So I
ran that program.
A: And would those kids be orphans primarily?
C: They were, they were not on paper orphans. So a lot of the, you probably know this,
so a lot of the Amerasians kids that ended up coming came through very nefarious means.
So they were orphans in their country, but because people knew they were gold tickets to
get to the states. That’s what they were called. They would sort of adopt them to get to
the states.
A: Oh! So parents that had no blood, or people that had no blood connections to (--)
C: In some cases right. And in some, you know, that wasn’t all of the cases, but it was
prevalent. And in some cases you know, the families really did care about the kids. And
then we had a Khmer population while I was there. And did we have Lao? If we had
Lao it was like miniscule. So it was mostly Vietnamese and Khmer when I was there.
And the Catholic Church was there, the Mormons were there. I mean it was like a whole
community.
A: Yah. Any difficulties there between the different nationalities?
C: Sometimes, yah. Sometimes they’d be pretty nasty clashes.
A: Remember any stories or incidents?
C: Not particularly, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t often, but you know, once in a while, yup.
15
�A: Now did you, did you work with Cambodian folks (C: Yup) there? And did some of
those people end up in Lowell?
C: Yah. Like you know, if I’m talking to somebody whose, who I think could fit the age
range, if I meet somebody, I’ll ask them. “So what camp were you in?” And sometimes
it will be that one. Yah, it’s kind of cool.
A: How long did you end up staying there?
C: Two years. I do everything for two years I think. [Laughs] I like to start things up. I
did. I’ve been in my job for twenty. So yah.
A: Maybe we should go back a little bit more and talk about your transition from IRF
[Indochinese Refugee Foundation] to the School Department. How did that come about?
C: If memory serves me, which sometimes it doesn’t, I believe Ann O’Donnell
approached me.
A: Don Pearson?
C: Ann O’Donnell.
A: Oh I’m sorry, Ann O’Donnell.
C: She was the head of the bilingual program.
A: Okay.
C: For a very long time. And I believe she approached me and asked me if I’d be
interested. They had this position. I think they got federal funds for it or something.
A: It was a new position?
C: Yup, to oversee development of a Southeast Asian curriculum. So yup.
A: Tell us all about that.
C: So in my role I oversaw, I had three curriculum developers, one Lao, one Khmer, and
one Vietnamese. And so our job was to try to develop a, you know, native language
curriculum that they could use in the schools, and that was a huge lift, because you know,
we’re talking K-12. I mean it was a huge lift. So we mostly focused on literacy, and then
would you know as we could develop materials, you know, in other content areas. But
we’d produce our own books and stuff like that, yup. And I believe, and you guys would
know maybe the timeline. So there was a time when there was going to be a shift away
from the Indochinese Foundation to splitting off the groups. When you talk to Hai he’ll
know.
16
�A: Okay. So like when the CMAA [Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association] was
formed?
C: Yah!
A: Yah, so the CMAA [Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association] was formed in 84.
C: Yup.
A: And I don’t know. Was there a Lao and Vietnamese?
C: There, well there was an effort. (A: Okay) It didn’t take hold, but there was an effort
to do that, yah.
A: Okay. So the CMAA was really the only group that kind of had legs?
C: It ended up, yup, that I recall. Yup.
K: Do you keep in touch with anyone you worked with, or while working for, at the
IRF?
C: Not really keep in touch. I, you know, I would see people out in the community and
you know, a couple of families I keep in touch with that I served, but I don’t keep in
touch with staff as much. In fact it’s funny one of the families that I for whatever reason
just became really close with, a Lao family, their daughter now has children my middle
son’s age and they’re best friends.
K: Oh.
C: So she, so you know when she came to the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]
she was like yay big, and now she’s mom to two kids and so it’s yah, it’s great.
K: What about the family you sponsored?
C: I have no idea. [Unclear], I have no idea. You know my life took a, you know, a left
turn. You know, when you have kids everything, everything changes. So you know, I
became much less involved in the community. I took this job up in Portsmouth, New
Hampshire. So I became sort of much less connected here.
A: Yah. So you went from IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] to the school
department and then (--)
C: Then to Middlesex.
17
�A: And then to Middlesex. And how did you get connected up with Middlesex if you
recall?
C: Maybe Molly Sheehy?
A: Okay.
C: Yah, I think that’s probably likely.
A: Okay. And what did you do at (--) You talked a little bit about it already, but.
C: So you know, in setting up the Lowell Campus they were mindful, right that they
wanted to serve the Southeast Asian population. So we set up this um, and they had a
Gateway City’s Grant I believe to do that. So myself and a Hispanic community Leader,
Peki Wilson, who was at the time really well regarded in the Latino community (--)
A: How do you spell the first name?
C: Peki, P E K I was her nickname. Griselda was her first name.
A: Raselda?
C: Griselda.
A: Griselda. Okay.
C: She was Cuban, but very well regarded in the Hispanic community. So she and I
were sort of the two key staff at the Resource Center which operated out of Wannalancit
at the time, because we started at Wannalancit right?
A: Yah.
C: And so our job really was to provide sort of counseling so to speak to you know, kids
who were interested in maybe attending Middlesex, and while they were at the college
providing a lot of bicultural support for them. You know, doing special events with them
and just being there as a listening ear.
A: Were there a lot of students coming to Middlesex when, at the beginning essentially?
C: Well I think because of our outreach we started really to get kids you know aware of
the college and starting to come into the college.
A: How did you do the outreach? Do you recall?
18
�C: Well by that time I had, you know, because of my work at the Foundation I had a
pretty good network. So that wasn’t a huge lift. You know, without that I don’t know
what I would have done, but yah.
A: So who were some of the community leaders from the different refugee communities
at that time?
C: So the Lao I would say Kumson Silavong. I think he’s passed recently. Sommanee
Bounphasaysone, she’s actually a really good friend of mine. Who else in the Lao
community? That’s what I recall, and Sommanee worked for the DCF ultimately.
A: So many Lao folks or?
C: Sommanee is her name, sorry. [Laughs]
A: [Laughs] I’m going deaf anyways, so.
C: I know you and me both. So in the Cambodian community at the time it was Michael
Ben Ho (A: Umhm), great man.
A: Yah, he just passed away as well.
C: I know. Narin Sao. (A: Umhm) You probably know them all. I’m trying to think
who else. Those are the two that come to mind really.
A: Okay. Is Narin still around?
C: Yup.
A: Okay.
C: Yah, he lives in Chelmsford but he’s around. He’s a great guy, great guy.
A: Any politicians that stood out either kind of pro refugee, or not so pro?
C: Like if you tick check off names I could say “Oh yah, I know,” but (--)
A: One of the guys over the years, a couple of the guys that could be perceived as not
being super friendly would be Tarsy Poulios. [Both same name at same time].
C: Tarsy Poulios, right, it just all of a sudden came back to me! Yah, he was like the
Donald Trump of Lowell. So I’d say yah.
A: Do you remember any interactions with any of your jobs with him?
C: No.
19
�A: Okay. Anybody on the pro side?
C: I’m sure there were, because again we had, you know, we had a fair amount of (--)
Oh God I’m just remember on the school board, Katherine Stoklosa. She blamed me for
all of the refugees coming to the city.
A: How so?
C: At the school committee meeting.
A: Oh really?
C: Yah.
A: And so she didn’t think it was a good idea?
C: Oh no! We should stop those people from coming, yup. I mean a lot of people were
(--) It’s you know, it’s fear you know the unknown. Right, it’s so common, we don’t
learn.
A: Good.
K: Do you see any similarities in your job today with working with the IRF [Indochinese
Refugee Foundation]
C: No. I wish I did. [Laughs] No, I’m (--)
A: We won’t leave that on the record.
C: Yah! I’m pretty far removed from feeling like I have an impact on people’s lives, but
that’s okay.
K: He kind of skips this question, but what was the most interesting or enjoyable part of
your job?
C: Oh the people. Oh God yah. Just really, just delightful people, and some of them
could be like royal pains in the asses, but you know. Hai’s father worked for me, and a
wonderful, wonderful man. And he was very set in his ways. So supervising him was a
challenge, but you know, wonderful, wonderful man. And so just really wonderful
people and I learned a lot.
A: Any final thoughts about your time working for the IRF [Indochinese Refugee
Foundation]?
20
�C: No, just that you know, I want to thank Jackie’s husband. [Laughs] Really it was a
life changer for me, that opportunity, and Hai. It really was. I mean they took a risk with
me, because I was (--) How old was I? I was young, really and you know, I guess the
good thing for me was nobody had that experience because it was so new. So they took a
chance with me and it was great.
A: Yah, you said Jackie’s husband?
C: He’s the one that recommended me for the job.
A: Jackie Moloney’s husband?
C: Yup.
A: Oh, okay, and how did you know him?
C: I worked with him at CETA, the (--) Yup, Ed.
A: Yah, okay. What did he do at CETA?
C: He was one of the managers. So there was Ed and Henry Przydzial, and yah. But
yah, he just pulled me aside and said, “Hey, Jackie’s leaving this job. I think you should
go for it.” Now Jackie is brilliant. And going in trying to fill her shoes, I had to get over
that one right away. Yup, she’s brilliant.
A: How so?
C: I don’t know she just is.
A: But I mean how did you feel that you (--) Was there a learning curve from what
Jackie had done?
C: I mean I would have, if I tried to sort of emulate what she did, or be who she was I
would have failed. So I had to just find my own way in the job and yah. And I was
successful, but I’m just saying you know, yah.
A: Any final thoughts about your time working here in the city.
C: No, I mean I miss it. I loved doing that kind of work. My work is like I said, very
removed. You know, I have a federally funded job where I lead a multi-million dollar
grant, blah, blah, blah. So it’s a great job and but I loved doing community work.
Someday in my retirement.
A: Yah, why not?
C: Yah.
21
�A: Great.
K: I think that’s it, right?
C: Thank you so much.
K: Thank you.
A: Thank you.
K: Yah, this is great.
C: So are you a student at UMass?
K: Yah, I’m a student. I’m a sophomore.
C: What are you studying?
Interview ends
jw
22
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Relation
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The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Carol Keirstead oral history interview transcript, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Adoption
Adoptive parents
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee camps
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
Description
An account of the resource
The transcript of an oral history with Carol Keirstead on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the IRF, sponsoring a family, and adopting a child from Cambodia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Keirstead, Carol
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
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2016-03-05
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
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22 p., 21.5 x 28
Language
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English
Type
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Text
Identifier
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uml4_16.02_i002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
BASF Systems Corporation
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association
Cambodians
Centralville
Daley Middle School
Documents
International Institute of New England
Laotians
Lowell Public Schools
Moore Street School
Philippine Refugee Processing Center
The Grove
Vietnamese
Wang Laboratories
-
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Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INFORMANT: LAN & HAI PHO
INTERVIEWER: KALE CONNERTY
DATE: October 5th, 2016
L=LAN
H=HAI
K=KALE
[Note: At the request of Lan and Hai Pho minor edits have been made to this transcript for clarification.
An unedited version of this transcript is available.]
H: Okay, why don’t you introduce yourself and then I’ll do it?
L: My name is Lan Pho. And my husband and I have participated in the resettlement of refugees from
Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, into Massachusetts in general and in Lowell and the greater Lowell area
to be more specific since the late 70s.
H: My name is Hai Pho. I am a member of the initial establishment of the Indochinese Refugee
Foundation back in 1976. And with the participation and support of my wife Lan, and five other
members, we established what is known as the Indochinese Refugee Foundation Incorporated in 1977,
on January 27, 1977 by the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Thank you.
K: So just to get started, what were the circumstances under which the IRF was started? Or how did
you decide to start it?
H: Okay, all right. The histories of immigration and refugees are quite different. The U.S. program for
immigrants started a long, long time ago, but I think in 1965, ‘66 there was a law by the Congress to
define immigration. And the status of refugees were not well defined then. So people that came
before 1975 were classified by law not as refugees but as immigrants. Immigrants came to better their
lives economically, socially. Refugees came as a place for protection because they were pushed out.
1
�So there’s a theory, there’s a pull and push theory. Immigrants are pulled into the U.S. for the
economic social betterment. Refugees were people whose lives were threatened and were pushed out
of their countries and they came for shelter, for protection, for survival. And so in 1975 at the end of
the Vietnam War some hundred and a hundred and thirty thousand refugees from Vietnam were
hosted in the U.S. for their survival, because they were pushed out by the Communist army victory in
South Vietnam. In 1980 the U.S. Congress established a law, the 1980 Refugee Act, that defined the
meaning of refugees and provided a systematic procedures and numbers for annual admission of
refugees into the US, the quota for Indochinese refugees to be resettled in the U.S. per year. And that
is the beginning as far as a statutory refugee definition is concerned.
As far as the Indochinese Refugee Foundation is concerned, we established it in 1977 because in 1975
some Vietnamese refugees just came to New England, to Boston, most of them with nothing but the
clothes on their back. So for the first year or so we were just trying to establish our life, re-establish
our life. And we do try to pull our community together. And we made an appeal on September 27,
1976 for Vietnamese and American friends and supporters to help us organize into a kind of a Mutual
Assistance Association. And that sort of launched the action to create an Indochinese Refugee
Foundation that was drafted. The Charter was drafted and then finally incorporated in the spring of,
January 27, 1977.
K: So going off of talking about the definition of refugees. Looking through the archives we see
documents that are trying to distinguish between political refugees and economic migrants. So were
there any difficulties, or controversies involved with trying to make that distinction? Or did you have
any problems?
H: There are a lot of difficulties. In most peoples’ mind immigrants come [here] to better themselves,
and they should not be dependent on anybody, particularly on public assistance. When refugees came
they had nothing with them. There was no preparation. There was no anticipation of self-sufficiency
at that particular point. In fact total lack of preparation. So from Southeast Asia, from Vietnam, Laos
and Cambodia, there are two phases. The first phase in 1975 to 1977, these people came from a very
advanced background, and so they can establish, re-establish themselves very fast, very well. In fact
there are a lot of studies that prove how successful that first phase of resettlement of refugees from
Vietnam at that time [was]. There’s a group of studies that was made [showing] there’s no impact on
the host country, on the United States, particularly with the initial U.S. policy of integration. In the
policy of integration of Indochinese refugees in 1975 there was an effort to disperse, meaning to
spread them out. How did they do that? By a hosting requirement, a requirement having a host, a
family host or a church, or an agency to host each family from Vietnam to settle in the U.S. Because of
that requirement, the Vietnamese who first came as refugees in 1975, ‘76 were spread out all across
the U.S. But – and in addition they were well, trained well, professional people, so with their
2
�background and skills they could find jobs, they could find housing on their own. They didn’t need to
depend on any help from agencies of the states or the federal government.
The phase of refugees that came from 1979, 1980 on were pushed out from Southeast Asia, from
Cambodia, from Vietnam because of the drastic, drastic, horrible, horrible violent policy of the regimes
in Southeast Asia. Those people were not prepared and they had to be dependent on public
assistance, and that created a lot of objections.
K: So – I’ll start with you Hai – what were your specific roles in the IRF, first as a member of the Board
of Directors?
H: Yes, I was fortunate to be educated, trained, get my Doctorate Degree at Boston University, teach
at UMass Lowell from 1968 on. So I have a well established root in Lowell. In fact I came to Lowell
some five, six years before anybody else was here, my wife and I, our family. And, in 1975 when the
first wave of Vietnamese refugees came, I was with my friend Doctor Nghia Nguyen, a physicist at
Draper Labs in Cambridge and we put together a group of leading Vietnamese refugees. They are
lawyers, they are engineers, they are scholars, and an American retiree from the State Department,
[unintelligible] to form the founding members group of the Indochinese Refugee Foundation to help to
provide the technical skill to help those who follow us who need some help to create a Mutual
Assistance Association. That is my role.
K: And what about your duties as the Coordinator for the Indochinese Self-Help Project?
H: Then three, four years later when the boat people from Vietnam and the Cambodian Refugees from
Cambodia who were sheltered on the Thailand borders, came. The State Department, because of
[continued need] to resettle Cambodians and Laotians, instead of dispersal they created a cluster
system, meaning they bring them as groups into different locations in the U.S. There were about five,
six clusters, one of which was the Lawrence/Lowell cluster. And each cluster, they bring about a
hundred families to the area, and these are supposed to receive not only assistance in resettlement,
but also to receive assistance in language skills, in employment training and job placement. So the
resettlement consisted of two phases. One is housing and (L: Language skills) language skills. No, that
is training, training in employment. ET, training, education and training. Okay. The first phase is
housing welfare resettlement, just to get them settled in a local community. The second phase is
Employment and Training. And because of the cluster system there was a high demand for
employment training in the Lawrence/Lowell area, [such] that the agencies, the local agencies that
provide the resettlement cannot handle it and do not have the staff, the skill to handle the education,
English as a Second Language, the job preparation and employment placement for them. So we sort of
see the need for it and find ways voluntarily to do it, but [there are] not enough resources available to
3
�us, because we are just resettling five years ago and it’s just not enough resources available to us. So
we call on the U.S Government, which at the time [it] is the State Department that is responsible for
resettlement to give us the funding. And so they did earmark some five million dollars to those selfhelp groups, mutual assistance groups, to apply. And if we did qualify they would give us the grant to
provide English as a Second Language, and orientation to resettle, and Employment and Training. So
that’s how I submit an application, because they sent out what is called a “Request for Proposal”
across the United States. And we are among the four or five Mutual Assistance Associations that
received that funding to provide Employment and Training here.
K: Was that the same as the Targeted Assistance Grants Program, or is that something different?
H: Separate.
K: Separate, okay. We won’t talk about that.
H: Target Assistance is different. (K: Okay) So that is the Self-Help Project from the Indochinese
Refugee Foundation.
K: Which was later renamed, years later, to the (--)
H: Employment Training.
K: Employment, yeah.
H: Yes, yes, because – well, before I jump into that. That is how the Mutual Assistance Association
transformed itself in this activity through the Self-Help Project because we believe that we can do it
just as well as anyone else. And in doing that we really make a special effort to find qualified
Vietnamese, qualified Cambodian, qualified Laotian refugees unlike many VOLAGs that relied on
American staffs. We screen ourselves to ask them to provide us staff for these services. The only ones
that we need are Americans who are skilled in teaching English as a Second Language, who are skilled
in running the businesses of Self-Help Project. So that’s how we recruited Miss Jacqueline [Fidler]
Moloney as the Project Director, and Miss Elise Martin as an English language teacher. But the rest of
the staff, and these are very important people, the Vietnamese social workers, the Cambodian social
works, Laotian social workers to go out and do the actual helping of refugee families that came to
Lowell.
K: Okay, I’ll move to Lan. Oh –
4
�H: Just one more step.
K: Okay, go ahead.
H: The first one hundred families in Lowell consist of about maybe four or five hundred people, mostly
children and women. There are very few men, okay, because as you can understand the men were
killed in the war or they run all over the place. So the fact that from 1979 to 1982 there’s a large
number of children that need to go to school, there’s quite a few women that need to get the health,
medical health, mental health and welfare, creates some kind of pressure on the community, but
because of the capabilities of these native social providers, workers, they did manage so well that their
reputation gets across the United States to the other clusters. And the problem with that is that it
creates what is known as the second migration. It creates the attraction for Cambodians, for Laotians,
from other clusters who are in South Carolina, who are in Louisiana, who are in Minnesota, who are in
Oregon, who are in California, to drift on their own, nobody brings them here, but on their own they
slowly migrated to Lowell. That increased the population several folds that nobody anticipated. No
one from the State Department, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare – in those days
HEW is also the one that provided the funding – and we did not anticipate that, definitely. We didn’t
know what’s happening there. So that creates a kind of pressure on the host, on the city of Lowell.
K: Were you able to get more funding from the state because of that influx?
H: No! There’s no (--) [Laughs]. That’s the problem. That’s the original problem that creates a lot of
pressure. That’s where my wife came into play.
K: Okay. So [addressing Lan] what were your duties as President of the IRF?
L: Well I immersed [myself in] an effort to relieve the community at large of number one, the
challenge of housing and feeding the refugees and their families. I realized [the need to] get them to
be self-sufficient. Get them to be able to communicate in English and give them an opportunity to
work and earn the bread for their family. I realized that if we don’t want to add any more burden to
the community then we have to seek help from the prospective employer to take part of the, to
provide you know, some limited English language capability and job training for their own employees.
So I went into different companies and appealed to them, that if they like to have good and faithful
employees, then they have to provide some extra services to their employees. For example, the
provision of on-the-job English training. So we came to the company at first learning the job ourselves
and what kind of English that the employees would need. And we developed a curriculum for job
related English training. And we also appealed to the company to provide at least one hour a day for
their employee who came from Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to learn English on the job, and also to do
5
�show-and-tell on how to do the job, you know, more efficiently. And it turned out that the curriculum
that we helped to develop is very helpful. And the employers are very happy with it. The employees
are very excited about it. So I think all in all the placement of, you know, the refugees into entry level
jobs is not difficult at all. And we started out with one company at the time. And the first one in
Lowell is Lowell Lingerie, which is a textile company. And then we went into Billerica to get into a little
bit of a higher skilled job. At Lowell Lingerie it’s basically training stitchers, you know, who can work on
a sewing machine and do the sewing job. And when we brought the project to BASF, which is a
medical instrument manufacturing company – [H: Medical instruments.] –medical instruments
producing company, it worked out also very well. The job requirement was a bit higher than at Lowell
Lingerie. And it worked out fine. And then we brought it into Bedford with Bedford Glen Hotel and
Resort Center, to train housekeepers, and people in the food processing area. So these are examples
of the three companies lend a hand into the recruitment training maintaining their employees who
came from the Southeast Asian Community.
K: That’s great.
H: That explains the switches, the changes in name of this Self-Help Association, because the Self-Help
start with the resettlement mostly, but by 1982, ‘83, as you know, it split. The program changed name.
And the reason for that is that we’ve now set up the process of recruiting Cambodian, Laotian,
Vietnamese to be providers themselves, to be direct participants themselves. Now we manage to get
them into three separate identities. I don’t know if you realize Indochinese is an umbrella, broad
umbrella, but the fact that the Cambodian are to help themselves, the Vietnamese are to help
themselves, the Laotian are to help themselves, became a reality around 1982, ‘83 – that’s the turning
point. That’s when the Indochinese Refugee Foundation focused on Employment and Training.
K: Did [focusing on] that have anything to do with the struggling economy that was happening at the
time just right in the early 80s?
H: The economy actually is part of the issues, but at that time I think we mostly focused on providing
services. And when we applied for funding for the Mutual Assistance Association we were focusing
mainly at the beginning on resettlement, but by 1982, ‘83, the Employment and Training became very
important, critical because there’s pressure to place these people and get them out from dependency
on welfare. So maybe it played a role, but I don’t think that’s a major role. The major role is the
pressure put on the community, the host community, that means the Lowell inner city agencies, and
that coming to issue is education too, the children, schooling. And that’s where my wife again has to
do the advocacy with the help of city fathers. She can tell you about the effort to do that.
6
�L: I guess, you know, at that time, the practice of school desegregation started in the Lowell Public
Schools, because some educators believed that the Southeast Asian children should be integrated into
different schools rather than concentrated in the Acres area, you know, which is also in the heart of the
Lowell area.
H: Also that’s the low cost housing, that’s where the refugees kind of get stuck into. So the children,
you know, naturally are placed into the Acres school and they are all over, in the closet, sitting in the
hallways, etc. They even rented spaces from the YMCA and to house the children.
L: Wherever they can find space for the children, but mostly concentrated in the number schools in
the Acres area. And both the parents and the teachers are not happy about that. No, no, not just the
community, not just the students. So the school undertook a desegregation, it started out with busing
children across the school district rather than concentrated them in one area. At first the movement
or the practice was met with a lot of challenges from not just the community, but from the teachers
themselves. In addition, because parents in the Belvidere area of Lowell would not like to have refugee
children attending the same school with their children.
H: They fall behind and sort of drag the mainstream students. There are a lot of problems then.
L: However I believe that there is a short vision from both the parents and schools. I believe that
diversity started in the school system. You don’t have to wait until the student graduates and is
suddenly met with the challenge of being different. That’s what my personal belief [was], and I fully
agreed with the school desegregation and supported busing of students to different schools in the
district, rather than a concentration of refugee students in a couple of schools. And I was very
fortunate to get the support of first, the Dean of the Graduate School of Education from UMass Lowell.
So together we provide training to the teachers on how to work with students of different cultural
backgrounds and different English capability. So when teachers felt their job was very rewarding –
challenging, but very rewarding – then they started to feel like diversity needed to be started in the
school.
H: I think in addition to that there was such a large influx of children from the refugee community that
the school system was overwhelmed. And because of that there was a lot of resistance not only to
school, but also to refugees and immigrants that fled into Lowell, and they start a movement of antirefugee, anti-immigrants. And in fact it involved the city mayor [Dick Howe]. He had to come up and
justify why, you know, what are we going to do with all of these kids in the school? And so I recall a
time when Dick Howe I think called on us to do something. And so Lan was the one that joined him to
go to Washington to demand more support, you know? And I remember she made a couple of trips
7
�with him to HEW, what’s that, Health, Education and Welfare Department to get funding. We got a lot
of additional funds from the federal government to support the school system here.
L: In fact, you know, in the period of five years from a joint effort between the mayor of the city, the
superintendent of schools (H: Mr. Mroz) yah, Mr. Mroz, we went to Washington, DC and knocked at
the door of then Senator Kennedy and Congressman Atkins.
H: Paul Tsongas.
L: Yes, Paul Tsongas, and all together they were able to advise us how to approach in terms of applying
for funding from a pool of money for what they called the Dire Need of Refugee Resettlement, which is
a federal pool of money. And in the period of five years we were able to bring in more than two
million dollars [K: Wow] to this school system, the public school system in Lowell. So it alleviated the
school budget quite a bit, and they were able to hire ESL teachers, guidance counselors, and also to
provide some limited services to students, like free lunch, you know, for the children. So all in all I
think it’s an effort of a community, you know, together with the parents to make school for the
children from refugee families available to them and also it’s a pleasant experience.
K: You were also involved on an Affirmative Action Committee at the, I think maybe at UMass Lowell?
Do you remember?
L: I think (--) Correct, I think at UMass Lowell I was asked to join as a group of faculty to assist the
person in charge of the Affirmative Action Program, or at the time I think it was known as EEO, which is
Equal Employment Opportunity (--)
H: Equal Employment Opportunity.
L: Yes, Equal Employment Opportunity, which is a kind of a different look at Affirmative Action. It’s a
matter of wording, but I think it’s more than that, because with EEO, people feel like, well I can work
with you, but with Affirmative Action Program, it looked like, I have to accommodate you. So I think
it’s a slightly different perspective, but is very helpful you know, to get any initiative started.
K: Do you think there was a problem of discrimination against refugees when they came to Lowell, or
do you think it was more (--)
L: I think there’s a level of challenges. I wouldn’t say discrimination. I think the physical appearance of
children, or adults, from Southeast Asia is very much different from the so to say Caucasian
mainstream. The ability to communicate is also different. And people usually do not have time to
8
�understand and to be patient enough to make themselves understood. So I think it created challenges,
but I wouldn’t say discrimination.
K: So the building where the IRF was kind of held, or, was at the International Institute. Were there
any other associations that used that building?
H: Well from 1980 up until 1983 there’s only one, the Self-Help Project that has the funding to pay for
the rent and the classrooms at the International Institute of Lowell, on High Street. And the other, the
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association, the Laos Mutual Assistance Association and the Vietnamese
one, were just beginning to perform as social, cultural groups. They used the facility under our, the
Indochinese Refugee umbrella, and we try as much as possible to facilitate the facilities for them. And
in fact we know that – because I’m fully familiar with the history, the rivalry, the hostility – to be
honest with you there’s hostility among the Vietnamese, and the Cambodian, and the Laotian back in
their own country. This is nothing new. So that as the supervisor of the Indochinese Refugee and the
Self-Help Project, I have to anticipate what’s going to happen once each group develops their own
identity. Sort of to reassemble themselves here in Lowell, to gain their own footing in Lowell, they
wanted to be independent from one another. And that is when we prepare the way, honestly at that
time as the program supervisor I don’t expect it to last any more than five years, and that’s exactly
what happened. By 1985 we want to be sure that each one of them can provide service to themselves,
and that the Indochinese would [proceed] in the background and would give up the service providing
for any one of them. Okay, so Miss Keirstead should be the one to tell you how we pulled back and
how the Laotian, the Cambodian, and Vietnamese applied, with her help, their own funding to give
direct support to each other, and that the Indochinese would no longer be there for them. And so in a
way the rental for the International Institute was paid by themselves, no longer [the IRF] by 1985.
K: So after 1985 it seems like you started serving on several advisory councils?
H: That’s correct.
K: So was that kind of the shift with your involvement?
H: That’s correct, yes. Well at that time there was a lot of opposition, a lot of anti-refugee, antiimmigrants across the states, and so it really took more advocacy in the public domain than giving
services to the new refugees. And I really think at that time, I wish I could still stay local, but the
pressure for me to get into the state level to do the advocacy become so critical and there was nobody
else who was doing that. So that’s how we sort of get moving onto that level.
K: So what were some of the things you did as part of the Education Task Force?
9
�H: In, not so much in the Education Task Force, it’s mostly in trying to create a place in the state
government to advocate for refugees. I was very fortunate that in 1982 I had the connection with a
team of four or five persons in Boston. These are volunteers. These are some of the social workers,
but they are volunteers in helping refugees, and that included Dr. Don Luce, Jim Lavelle, from the
Indochinese Psychiatry Clinic, Holly Lockwood from the South Cove Mental Health Center, Kathy Lique
from the Boston School of Social Work and me from UMass Lowell, to petition, to draft a petition, for a
kind of an advisory council to the governor. And when Mr. Dukakis was elected for the second term as
Governor of the State, in fact we go through his wife Kitty Dukakis, to ask him to take a positive role for
refugees. He established an advisory council after his election. He created the refugee advisory
council, on April of 1982. So we start off in the fall of 1981 and helped create a council for him. And
from then on it goes on to advocate for refugees across the state. In 1985 we were fortunate to have a
state senator from Lawrence/Methuen, her name is Patricia McGovern, who really, who was the Chair
of the Ways and Means Committee, you know that’s money, Ways and Means is where the funding is,
to provide several million dollars, I think it’s about twenty, twenty-seven million dollars funding for
cities that have high refugee impact and that’s known as the Gateway Program.
K: Were there any other committees that either of you served on that you’d like to talk about? Those
were just the ones that I saw in the archives.
H: So I served on the Advisory, the Governor’s Advisory Council. I was one of the co-chairs of that.
And I also served as co-chair of the Gateway City Program. It was established we had to hold hearings
to see whether the city can justify to receive the money. So we have to hold hearings in twenty plus
cities to see what they need, and to see whether the agencies, the state agencies can really provide
service to refugees in their cities or not. So we hold whatever, you know, is required as hearings
committee. And there are reports. I don’t know if we have the collection here, but the state do have
these hearing reports from the Gateway City Program.
K: So who was at the hearings?
H: There are, the states have many agencies that provide social services. Mental Health, okay,
Welfare, what is, WIC is for women.
L: For women and children prenatal and natal care.
H: Employment training, there is a Labor Department, but in the state what is it called? I forget, it’s
employment training, really placement training.
10
�L: Employment and Training.
H: The Office of Employment and Training. There are about seven or nine agencies, the state agencies
that deal with refugee trainees. That do not have any you know, in order to get the services you have
to be eligible. And in order to be eligible you have to be a legal resident. Refugees are not legal
residents. You have to remember that. So they are not eligible until the governor issued a new act
authorizing the agency to admit refugees into their services, and that is really where it opens access to
refugees to come and apply for employment training, or apply for welfare, or apply for women and
children assistances. So we really work on that state level between 1985, 1990, but I end my services
by 1989.
K: So speaking on health, were there any significant issues with refugees receiving health care or
mental health care?
L: I think that is a poorly situation. In Vietnam, or Laos, or Cambodia, mental health is not perceived as
a sickness. It’s perceived as karma. You know in your previous life you must have done something
wrong so therefore you pay for it, you know, in this life. That you [are not mentally stable], because of
something you did in the past, in the previous life. So that is one challenge from the patient
perspective of, “what’s wrong with me?” “Do I need help?” Or “This is my karma. I have to live with
it.” And from the perspective of the service provider, guidance and counseling that is appropriate for
the cultural background of the patient was not available. So therefore in dealing specifically with
mental health issues, it is not easy neither for the service provider nor for the patient. So a lot of
education has to be provided before the patient is ready to receive services, and before the medical
staff, or the counselor is ready to provide the service.
H: Well I can remember one incident or a controversy back in those days that creates a lot of issues for
both schools and parents. In the Southeast Asian community, the Laos, and Cambodian, and
Vietnamese, when you catch a cold what do you do? You don’t take aspirin or anything like that. You
have what’s known as coin rubbings. I don’t know if you’re familiar with coin rubbings. They, in order
to increase skin heat, they rub coins over your neck in the back. And when the kids come to school and
they see all these rubbing marks they say, “Abuse, abuse, child abuse,” from the parents. And so
there’s a huge controversy about what’s going on between parents and children, and it takes a lot of
explanation, a lot to the medical staff, to the school, to explain that’s not abuse of children it’s kind of a
medical treatment.
L: Remedy.
11
�H: Remedy for cold, okay. That became a controversy across the refugee community in the U.S. And
they have to have medical doctors from different, you know, perspectives come and explain and write
articles to explain that it is not really an abuse of children. And we here too, are asked to explain
what’s going on with the children, and we have to go to school and explain it to them.
L: And I think, you know, Jim Lavelle who was at the time coordinating the mental health services
providing (H: veterans) at Saint Elizabeth Hospital in (H: In Brighton) in Brighton, would have to do a
lot of education, you know, explaining to both the physician and the parents, to know how to approach
mental health assistance in a very appropriate way.
K: Were there any (--) Going back towards the schooling, were there any controversies with having
bilingual classrooms, or having classrooms set aside for refugee children?
L: There was a movement at the time across the U.S. cities and communities of English as the only
language taught in the schools.
H: Well there were leaders, community leaders, there was George Kouloheras, Lowell school
committeeman who submitted a petition to the legislators, to the state officials, to make Lowell as the
English language school, English language only in school.
L: English only in school. But I guess, you know, there is a transition period whereby students and
teachers need to communicate with each other in order for education or learning to happen. And in
that transitional period, there’s a lot of study that’s been done indicating that bilingual programs –
which means that the subject is being taught in two languages, in English and in the home language
also – would shorten the transitional period for the student into mainstream classroom. And so you
know there’re a lot of challenges that the teachers, the school district and the students are facing and
they try to work out a better way to receive education and to provide education services.
K: There was also a campaign called “Jobs for New Americans.” Do you remember exactly what that
was about, or if it was connected to the Self-Help Project?
H: It’s not connected to the Self-Help Project. How that came about I’m not familiar with.
K: Okay. What was one of the, what do you think, each of you, was your biggest challenge with
working for the IRF, or what was the biggest challenge you faced?
L: I don’t think that you know, there is a notion of the biggest or the smallest challenges that we were
facing at the time, but it is the awareness of, we need to do more work in order to make things happen
12
�either in schools, in hospitals, in the community. And when we came to terms with that challenge, you
know, everything we did was trying to smooth the way and make the challenges less challenging. So I
think we both, you know, the service providers and the service recipients, realized that, it’s just a
matter of making it work. So it’s a challenge, but there’s no big and no small one.
H: The only one of my concerns in those days when we [first] established the Indochinese Refugee
Foundation, [we] focused mostly in Boston, because that was the time when refugees came and
resettled in Boston. But by 1980 the population shifted to Lowell, the refugee population shifted in
Lowell and we had to focus so much work in Lowell that we left out Boston. And in that sense I felt
kind of sad that I could not, we could not do much more for those refugees in the Boston area. And to
that extent the members on the Refugee Foundation Board could not give us, lend us more support,
because most of them were in Boston, they were not in Lowell. However they did come every month
faithfully to the meeting, the board meeting here in Lowell in order to lend us support. We just could
not have enough resources, have enough strength to lend more work to the Boston area. But in a way
we felt that they gave us more support than anybody else that could help us to move on, to establish
the kind of services that we were able to do here in Lowell. So that, I would say that’s the only thing.
K: You spoke about how refugees ended up coming here because of the relative success of the
resettlement program here. Do you think that was the big kind of influence in why there’s such a big
(L: influx) Cambodian population now? Is that the explanation?
L: I think for, you know, that concentration of refugees from Southeast Asia into Massachusetts and
into Lowell, there were three situational factors that influenced the movement. One is the availability
of beginning low skill jobs. The number two factor is the availability of housing, low income housing.
And the number three factor is actually quite important. There are Buddhist Temples, places that are a
different religious entity that are available in support of the refugees who live, or who want to, who
were drawn to Lowell. So I think these are the three major factors that fuel, or attract the second
migration movement into Lowell.
H: These factors are very important, but I think the initial factor is, I believe, the fact that we perhaps
were the first organization that insisted on having a Cambodian, a Laotian, a Vietnamese native to do
the assistance to provide the kind of outreach, resettlement and employment training support within
the refugee communities. That really provided the sense of confidence that we understand what they
have to go through and we know what we can do to help them here. That sort of created a wave, an
appeal to those who are from elsewhere, from other clusters, to drift into Lowell. That I think, that
created the increases in population, and that also increased the support, the social support, the
cultural support, I think critically it’s the cultural, social support that brought about the Temples, that
brought about you know, the family clusters. Otherwise if you just have housing placement alone,
13
�anywhere else in the U.S. you can have that. Housing, jobs, you can go anywhere, but without that
value system, the social, the cultural values that “This is my people,” it will not attract them to come.
K: Do either of you have any other stories you’d like to share from the time, any specific experiences
with somebody?
L: Well actually I think that the interview with the information that we share with you thus far, you
know, would provide a sufficient story of resettlement, of the first wave, the second wave, the third
wave of refugees and immigrants from, you know, Cambodia, from Laos, and from Vietnam. When
you work more on the transcription, if you feel like you need some more information please feel free
to contact us.
K: Okay.
H: Well I just have a little story that I happened to experience. And that is, when we explained the
conditions of refugees in Lowell to Kitty Dukakis, she nearly cried. And she was the one that really said,
“Let me see what I can do.” In 1979 she paid her way to Cambodia, to Thailand in the border. And she
came back and hosted, adopted a Cambodian kid. I mean to me that is something that I will never
forget.
K: How do you think your time working for the IRF has influenced you?
L: I usually think that if I receive some good advice or some services from somebody then I mark on my
bucket list that I will find the opportunity to pay back. And I think the most satisfying feeling that I had
in volunteering my time for more than thirty years in the resettlement of refugees is a way, a very
small way, of paying back.
H: For me I think that it changed my life really. I came here to be a professional. Okay, I came not as a
refugee. I came as a student, went to high school in Waltham. I don’t know if you know anything
about Waltham. In those days back in the 1950s there was not a single Asian around let alone a
Vietnamese. I went to Boston College to get my degree so that I could go home and, you know, be
someone important. The feeling that I’m home-rooted here in Lowell because of that experience,
volunteer work, helping refugees, my own people and getting to know a lot of good people, really
profoundly affected my life. I cannot tell you how much, like Chet Atkins, Congressman from I think
Groton or, no, not Groton, Concord, or Kitty Dukakis, or Elise Martin and Jackie Moloney. These people
affected my life deeply. Made me feel I am rooted here. So I can tell you that really helped me more
than anybody else. Thank you.
14
�End of Interview
jw
edited by kc
15
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
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The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Lan Pho and Hai Pho oral history interview (edited) transcript, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
The edited transcript of an oral history with Lan Pho and Hai Pho on their experiences establishing and supporting the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Other topics discussed include their involvement helping refugee communities after the the IRF closed.
Creator
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Pho, Lan T.
Pho, Hai B.
Connerty, Kale
Source
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Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
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2016-10-05
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
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15 p., 21.5 x 28
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English
Type
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Text
Identifier
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uml4_16.14_i002
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The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
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The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
2010-2019
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association
Cambodians
Documents
Indochinese Self-Help Program
Laotians
Lowell Lingerie Company
Lowell Public Schools
Mutual Assistance Associations
Stouffer's Bedford Glen Hotel
The Acre
Vietnamese
Vietnamese Mutual Assistance Association
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
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The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lan Pho and Hai Pho oral history interview audio recording, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
The audio recording of an oral history with Lan Pho and Hai Pho on their experiences establishing and supporting the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Other topics discussed their involvement helping refugee communities after the the IRF closed.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pho, Lan T.
Pho, Hai B.
Connerty, Kale
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
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2016-10-05
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2 audio recordings; 01:02:10 and 00:07:20
Language
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English
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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uml4_16.14_i004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--Southeast Asia
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Oral history
2010-2019
Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association
Cambodians
Indochinese Self-Help Program
Laotians
Lowell Lingerie Company
Lowell Public Schools
Mutual Assistance Associations
Sound recordings
Stouffer's Bedford Glen Hotel
The Acre
Vietnamese
Vietnamese Mutual Assistance Association
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
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A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Elise Martin oral history interview audio recording, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Oral history
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Description
An account of the resource
The audio recording of an oral history with Elise Martin on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the organization.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Martin, Elise
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
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University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
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2016-06-24
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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1 audio recording; 00:50:30
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A language of the resource
English
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Sound
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uml4_16.09_i001
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The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
Cambodians
International Institute of New England Lowell
Lowell Public Schools
Sound recordings
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PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INFORMANT: ELISE MARTIN
INTERVIEWER: KALE CONNERTY
MEHMED ALI
DATE: JUNE 24, 2016
E=ELISE
K=KALE
A=ALI
Mehmed Ali begins interview with introduction:
A: Okay, so this is interview with Elise Martin on June 24, 2016. Thanks, and Kale is going to
take over.
K: So Elise when did you start working at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]?
E: I was looking through my memorabilia trying to remember exactly when. I believe it was in
April of 1981. It was 1981.
K: Where had you previously been working?
E: Lowell Public Schools.
K: Okay, so how did you come to start working for the IRF?
E: It was I’m pretty sure that, remembering that this was a really long time ago, but I’m pretty
sure that there was an ad in the Lowell Sun. I hadn’t known Jackie until that job if I’m not
mistaken, and I think that’s how we became friendly and Carol Keirstead as well. So I wouldn’t
have gotten the information about the potential position from a personal relationship with
Jackie. I think that happened afterwards. So it must have been in the paper. An ESL teacher, I
was, you know, I was in education. So an ESL teacher, that’s the role that I was hired for.
K: Did you then become the coordinator, or was your position title teacher?
1
�E: No, Jackie was the Project Manager, or Project Director and I was the ESL teacher and kind
of, I guess we’d now call it Workforce Development Person. We all and the roles were
intermingled. I wouldn’t say that anybody did just one thing, but I, our curriculum (--) You’re
going to take pictures of my water? [Mehmed Ali is taking photos] Do you want me to take
that off the table? Do you care? You don’t care? I don’t care.
K: [Sounds like: Oh, let me slide, let me slide over]
E: Okay.
M: We’re candid.
E: Where was I?
K: [Sounds like: We’ll cut it out]
E: Okay. Where was I? So the intent was to provide skills to enable the new immigrant
population to both survive and thrive here. And so that meant like essential English and we
started with really like essential English skills. But then it also evolved into more contextually
relevant language development for people who had mastered the basics of you know, help me
I’m lost, or how do you get to, to job, job application. And some kind of like industrial
manufacturing was still pretty big here. We were helping to place people in jobs. I wasn’t
doing job placement services. I was doing language development and interview techniques for,
but we were placing people in companies like Raytheon, and so contextually relevant skills as
well as language. It was fun.
K: So there were different types of classes that were offered we found in the archives and stuff
for survival, (E: Right, that was our) prevocational life skills, literacy training, pre-employment
orientation. (E: Umhm) So you just offered all of these different (--)
E: Yeah, we developed the, you know, we evolved as the population evolved in terms of their
language competency and their like needs at the time.
K: Where were the classes held?
E: At the International Institute.
K: And was that still on, in 79 High Street?
E: On High Street, yah, umhm.
K: Okay. How long did you work for the IRF?
2
�E: Probably two years. I can’t remember an exact ending date. And I also can’t remember why
that would have been. So it’s possible that the funding for that grant could have terminated at
that point, or the funding for the position. Or it’s possible, because that period of my life I
remember around when I had babies. I was in the middle of having babies at that time.
K: Yes, Jackie mentioned that, that you two were pregnant at the same time.
E: So I was very pregnant. And I had thought about it this morning, I didn’t have time to go
through my attic, but I have some old photos. I don’t know if you’d have any interest in them,
[K: Definitely] but I have some old photos of some of the events we had there. So I don’t (--) I
may have been pregnant with my third child and that might have been what caused me to
leave. In any case it would have been at least two years that I was there.
K: So what was a typical class like? Like how long, or like how many students were in each
class? Things like that.
E: Maybe, first of all it would depend. We offered the classes every day. We (--) I worked
thirty hours a week. I was hired to work thirty hours a week. And I think that for all of us
whatever the minimum requirement was turned into something more than that because you
were, you became very committed to the people you were working with, but. And so within
that time frame we developed as the need arose and it hadn’t been written into the grant
necessarily. So we might have started off by every class was offered every day to begin with,
and that was the survival skills. And then, and then we might offer, and then as the need arose
and or like the different immigrant populations out of this, from the three primary countries
from which the immigrants came, the Vietnamese, the Cambodian and the Laotian, they were
different, slightly different needs based on the country of origin. So we offered, we never
offered classes for a particular, for people of a particular country of origin, but we offered
classes based on those kind of conglomerate needs. So then we started offering, we’d be up to
maybe three or four classes a day.
And then the classes were (--) There was a curriculum (--) If I’m not mistaken, when I took the
job there was kind of a curriculum for basic survival skills, but quickly it became, I made it more
current. So you know, what are the things? What are the (--) Bringing in the Lowell Sun and
the job wanted ads and the language there. And asking people to bring in a rental, looking for
apartments, you know, what are the kinds of words you need to be able to read, and what are
the speaking skills involved. And it was emphasis on conversational English. And so you had to
build trust with a group of people in order for them to feel comfortable trying to speak in a new
language that was not even phonetically familiar. You know, like the whole conversion from
their language to our language in order to be able to read was a huge (--) And many of the
people that came from in particular the Vietnamese immigrants that we serviced during this
two years that I was there in general may have had a higher educational level coming out of
their country. The Cambodian and Laotian people had been the farmers. And because Pol Pot
had gone through and massacred anyone that wore eye glasses for example, that was like
they’d go through your house, or your hut and if you had glasses it was a sign that you needed
3
�them to be able to read. So you were gone. So there was a different level of education coming
from their own country and therefore different levels of job interest. So we tried to tailor it and
build a level of security, and comfort and trust, and mutual support within the groups
particularly for the conversational English. Imagine what it’s like to try to like start to speak.
I’m so monolingual. I mean I took four or five years of French and I’m still pretty monolingual,
and that was a fairly familiar you know, comparable language, so. So that was really important
establishing trust in a sense of confidence that we were there to help them, and that we were
all in this together, and that they could help each other and themselves.
There’s some great stories. I don’t know if you’re interested in any of the stories, but
K: Absolutely, yup.
E: As I speak I remember. So, and so I really would like to read the transcription of this,
because I want to make sure that my words don’t come out (--) You’ll be able to understand
the meaning, but I may speak in forked tongues to get there. So at the same time that this first
wave of Southeast Asian immigrants were coming into Lowell, and I think that this first wave of
immigration started somewhere like in the late 70s, maybe 1980, with church groups being the
predominant sponsoring organizations that brought the first wave in. As that, actually I do
remember because then my children were in school and the impact was clear in the public
school system. But as the numbers of Southeast Asian people grew in the city so grew a sense
of, I would like to say that it’s like fear of the other or the unknown kind of thing. It wasn’t a
negative or a prejudicial sense. It was just, who are all these people, and what are they doing
here in our city, and what’s going on, and the resources? And so then out of that, not a whole
lot different from, we’re actually much more, much more civilized than some of what is
happening in our country today. But out of that came a lot of urban myths and people
wouldn’t, I would be at like you know, parties or someone’s house, or whatever, and here I am
like white middle class girl in Lowell right, woman. And so people make assumptions
sometimes about what they can say in front of certain groups of people based on how you look.
So I would hear things like, “Do they really eat, you know, all kinds of animals?” And “Do they
really keep this in their apartment?” “Do they really have twenty people living in one, you
know, one-room apartment,” and dadadadadada. And the code violations, and the this and the
that, and the other thing. And it was really, actually it was a lot of fun. It was like I went to a
costume party and I was, and so no one would knew who I was, or you know, what I knew and
what my experience was and then I would get to like break the urban myth. Because what I
discovered, or what I learned about, first of all people would say to me, “Oh, and they get,” you
know, “Each person gets $2,000 when they come here to Lowell,” and you know, “We’re giving
them all this money for free and they’re,” you know, “eating our dogs” and all kinds of like
really weird far out things. It would have been very easy to verify had anybody bothered to like
take the time to get to know someone, but people sometimes prefer to spin the tail. So what I
discovered was at the time that people, that the refugees were getting a $200.00 stipend, or
whatever, resettlement, which doesn’t take one too far, right, in terms of coming here with
absolutely nothing. Like no clothes, except what the sponsoring agency was able to offer you.
No housing except if the church was able. Sometimes the church members would be able to
4
�provide people housing. And then what they were doing, and this was, I don’t know if this was
actually a particular, I was going to say this was particularly towards the Cambodian and Laotian
men, but that may not be true. It may have been true of all three groups. Was that the men
were, as quickly as they were able to, buying a car and a relatively new car. And that would be
another thing I’d here. “Whoah, we’re giving them $2000.00 and they’re going and buying new
cars and they’re driving around the city, and I’m driving this old crappy car,” you know, dadada.
And then what they would do is buy this new car and get (--) They would wait until they knew
they had a job where they were all applying to the same company, and then they would buy
this new car together, like four or five or six men. And they would live, they would squeeze
themselves into the most affordable housing they could find and spend the money for the car,
because their rationale was, if we can’t get to work, if we buy six, or three or four junks and
rent a bigger apartment we may not be able to count on getting to work if it’s a place you
know, we’re not walking to work, they were traveling to Andover, whatever, and then we’ll lose
our jobs and we can’t let that happen. So they did that. And that was like, so smart. And you
know, no one I know ever like thought that intelligently about how to get by kind of collectively
instead of the individualistic society that we have. Like each person gets their money and they
buy the best thing they can with their money. And their society, or at least as a result of their
experience, but probably their culture prior to coming here was more collectivist, and you
know, we come together as a village to support each other. And so they mirrored that in their
strategy for insuring that they had employment so that they were not looking for federal, or
state, or city subsidies to get by.
K: That’s great. So what was the most challenging part of your job, like difficulties? Were their
difficulties getting like books or teaching materials, or anything like that?
E: No, there wasn’t, because it was, it was easy enough to supply my own materials once I
figured out what I was doing, and improvised to be relevant to the moment. And there was no,
it wasn’t like you know you’re teaching in a high school, or a college program and you’re
teaching Bio I, and the students have to take Bio 2 next so you have a certain set. (K: Right) So
it was what do we need for today? And as I became more comfortable, like anyone, as you
become more comfortable in your role, less insecure in whether or not you’re going to be able
to do it I was able to ask them to help me to develop the curriculum going forward. You know,
what do we (--) So what should be on the agenda for next month and how do we build these
classes? What do you want to learn? What are some of your problems? How can we use
language to help you adjust those problems? So I don’t know. I can’t imagine what the worst
part of my job was. Every day was different and every day I felt like I was doing something that
mattered and that means a lot. So I would say probably the struggle to (--) There were (--) As I
mentioned, the levels of prior education where the discrepancies were significant. And so
there are, and then there are also individual learning styles and speeds. And so there were (--)
And then their age range, that was also fairly significant. The age range was relatively
significant. We had, we had young, maybe late teenage young men coming here having lost
their families in many cases. And then we had a lot of older people, well older, younger than I
am now, but like probably people in their 40s coming, and 30s who had babies and somehow
had escaped you know, with some part of their family, or not. And so the younger people
5
�regardless of their level of education previously were, I don’t know, is it that you’re more
flexible to learning new things when you’re younger? And then there were some people, some
men in particular, you know, some women who’d never even, it was enough that their
husbands would learn the language. But there were many more men in my classes than
women even though, and I don’t think that that gender ratio was representative of the
population that was here. I think that’s also very cultural, you know, going to school, but there
were men that were in their 40s who had, you know, who hadn’t been able to read in their
native language, or were necessarily particularly articulate in their (--) You know, they were
farmers and they may never have even bumped into anybody else, and so for them, to try to
help them to develop the communication skills to be successful. Sometimes you knew that this
person was, was going to have a really hard time if at all able to be successful in communicating
enough to get a job, which was what they all wanted to do. So that was, but that’s the case no
matter who you’re teaching, where you’re teaching.
K: Right.
A: So with the women learning was there family kind of, was family holding women back from
coming to the IRF?
E: No, I would not say that, because the women were usually there with their husbands. I
mean they stuck together. The husband/wife unit was pretty tight because you’re strangers in
a new place, right. So the women didn’t speak. Most of the women, most of the Cambodian
Laotian women did not speak any English. So to be left home while your husband is at the
International Institute meant that you were like totally unable to communicate with anybody
unless you happened to be in a building with people who spoke your language. So, but they,
they didn’t engage in the class to the same degree that the men did. Often they were taking
care of the babies. Not taking care of, because seriously the babies went in the infancy that
was usually like supplied by the church. And when I think about like I know how the daughter
has a baby, and you know, the baby cries and everybody jumps. And this was like (--) It’s like
okay baby, lie there because we have something really important to do. So you’re going to
adapt to the family’s needs right now. It’s really good parenting. But I don’t think they had a
confidence in themselves. I think culturally that they weren’t you know, called upon. They
weren’t like village elders that had been female. So I think it was really primarily cultural. And I
think the Vietnamese (--) We had more female Vietnamese people in our classes than we had
female Cambodian or Laotian. And again that’s, that has to be a direct correlation with the
level of education in their country, and even the infrastructure in Vietnam prior to the war. You
know, there were cities and universities, and there was far less formal education available in
Laos and Cambodia at the time.
K: How big were the classes? There were like how many people do you think?
E: Twenty. As I’m thinking back on this I’m thinking that like for the intro, the survival skills,
there were always, it was a pretty consistent number. Because as some people became
relatively, not fluent, but fluent enough to move on to another level, or gain employment, then
6
�the ages of people attending got older. So some of the elders that came thought, well all right,
now I’ll go in and see, try my hand at it. There weren’t many school aged children obviously,
because once they were school aged they were in school.
Another thing that I really remember clearly from both my role in the public schools and my
role at the International Institute and they kind of went back and forth and blurred, is that the
Southeast Asian (--) This is a generalization, but as with every other ethnic, or language
linguistically diverse group that comes to this city, students and their families are offered the
opportunity for whatever it happens to be called at the time ELL, ESL, bilingual education, you
know, it had different names. And most of the Southeast Asian people who talked to me about
that in class, the parents, because they were, because I was the teacher and they were
navigating the public school system at the same time, when they spoke about it said they didn’t
want their children in ELL bilingual education. They wanted them mainstreamed from the start
to be, and they didn’t use the word immersed in the language, but that’s what they (--) Because
(--) And I was reminded back to my undergraduate years at UMass, I went to UMass Boston for
a year and studied urban sociology while I was there. And there was theory about immigrants
resettling in an urban area and the idea of the political refugee as opposed to the non-political
refugee, and the idea that if you can’t go back to where you came from then your motivation to
adopt the new, the cultural identity of the place that you’ve landed as quickly as possible, and
master, you know, become whatever that place is, become one of them, is stronger than if you
have the options of going back home should it not work out. So I think that the parents were,
wanted their kids to learn English fast and there was not going to be any like you know.
K: In the archives we’ve seen lots of papers trying to distinguish between political refugees and
economic migrants was the other term that they used for the opposite difficulty.
E: Oh nice, nice.
K: Were you the only ESL teacher while you were there, because we have some records like of
other people teaching classes. I have names. Maybe you’ll know.
E: Okay, try the names.
K: Gea Pho?
E: So that must be, is that (--) That’s got to be Hai’s relative right, Gea Pho?
K: I would think, yah.
M: Maybe that’s (--) Didn’t Jackie or Carol tell us about one of the Pho’s, like the wife’s father
worked there?
K: Oh yah.
7
�M: Maybe that’s who it is?
E: Oh okay, maybe.
K: Yah, that could be, umhm.
M: You don’t recognize that name right Elise?
E: No.
Mehmed: Okay.
E: No, not the first name at all. So my (--) So I’m thinking back to timing. This isn’t about the
question you just asked me, but when you asked me how long I was there I know I came in like
the spring of ’81. Jackie left sometime maybe in ’82. And Carol came in to replace her as
Project Director, and I was there for probably a year with Carol. So that’s about what my time
frame looked like.
K: And I think what ended up happening was that ESL got transferred over to other
associations. Like there was the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association.
E: Yes, yah, yup, but I don’t know if that happened. I can’t remember the reason I left. I can’t
remember whether, you know, there are certain jobs that you remember it was time to get out.
This wasn’t one of them. The thirty hours a week worked beautifully with my schedule of three
little kids, you know. So it was ideal. So I don’t know whether that the funding for that piece of
the program ran out, or if other, you know, they’re probably, the funding probably came in in a
block, and then Jackie as the Project Manager, or Carol had to redistribute it according to
needs. And maybe as other community services became available for language development
we had less need to put the hours into the ESL teaching or whatever it was, bilingual.
M: The CMAA (Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association) started in 1984. (E: Okay) So it
would have been after you, a year or so after.
E: Yah, yah, because I don’t remember. If they were, although some of the, I do remember
that some of the Cambodian men in particular, because it seemed that the Laotian, much of our
Laotian population, many of the people that first were there when I was first there, seemed to
have moved on to California within like a year. There was, and they probably went to, well I
don’t know if they went to Long Beach or not actually, because that’s the first largest
Cambodian, but they went to another place where there were more Laotian people. And that
might have been because there were more Cambodian people coming into this city and there
was this tension between the three groups. And Vietnamese people in many cases started to
move out into the suburbs and/or into the suburban Lowell neighborhoods more quickly
because they were employed at a higher level probably because of their educational
experience.
8
�K: Right.
M: Did you experience, was there any kind of minor conflicts between the groups?
E: So with the, you know, so you have a group of young guys in there. There were, there was a
little bit of, there was no over conflict, there was no physical conflict that ever like happened, or
that we were even aware of. And we got like the stories of what was going on in the
community, but there was a little bit of the snipping behind the back, you know, people’s back
about, you know, this group or that group from another group, from the men. The woman
couldn’t speak enough English to be able to say that necessarily.
M: And when you were doing ESL classes were all three groups in at the same classroom?
E: Umhm, yeah.
M: You didn’t have a Lao class and a Cambodian.
E: No, no, no. No, no, no.
M: Okay.
E: But then as we offered different levels of language development services, self-selection
would cause the groups to be a little bit more dominated by one ethnic, one ethnicity or
another.
M: Were there any problems getting enough like money for getting books or anything like that
over the budget?
E: You know I don’t, it didn’t, I don’t remember it being a problem. It may have been that we
didn’t have money for books, but it wasn’t anything I was looking for anyway. I felt like the best
teaching materials were the materials that were (--) I wasn’t teaching like a, I wasn’t teaching
the equivalent of like French I, or English I, (K: Right) or anything like that. I was teaching how
to get yourself going here in this community. So there are probably some text books, but they
would not have been contextualized to Lowell, or the Merrimack Valley in the same way that I
could do it with the resources I had.
M: So did you create your own handouts?
E: Yeah, yeah, umhm.
M: Do you remember specific stuff that you might have created for the curriculum?
9
�E: I just, I remember using want ads, job ads, and rental ads, having to read the language of
those ads in order. And then we would role play like what’s the response to this? What’s the
written response? What’s the interviewing with the perspective landlord? Because, because I
think that people came in with (--) Many of the refugees came in with their rent, their rental
situation or the living situation already established, whether it was through the support of the
church group, or whatever the resettlement agency was. But they were not, I don’t recall, they
were looking to become quickly independent, which meant having to navigate like the market
rental, the market rate rental market. So it was that kind. It was just in time language skills.
K: Yah. Did people have to repeat classes ever if they were (--)
E: You got to (--) You just stayed in a level. A lot of the times people would go to like multiple
levels. They would just, I think they felt like if I just, even if I can’t. So like the levels were the
survival, and they were the like there was the general readiness for job application process, and
then there was the more specific language development for people that were going to work.
And so let’s say there were three levels of language class, three different topics as oppose to
levels. It was never called that, but. Then somebody who really was at the survival language
level might still sit in the other classes figuring I’m bound to pick up something, you know. The
people that came to class were hungry to learn.
K: What was the most enjoyable part of your job?
E: The getting to, getting beyond the (--) They put (--) Teachers were on a pedestal. In at least,
perhaps in all three of those countries, but definitely in Cambodia and Laos, because there was
so little education available, the teacher, whether it was back in their village, or their town, or
their city, or and then here was the, like up there with the Monk. So you know, clearly coming
out of having taught at the Lowell Public, in the Lowell Public Schools, or you know, here at
Middlesex that’s not the same. We don’t elevate our teachers to such worship status. And so
having to (--) So at first it was kind of like, whoah, but you can’t, you can’t really help people
until you can help them to become self-sufficient and engage with them to the level that they’ll
share what they need. So that you can help them until there’s this trust, and there can’t be
trust between like a God and a person. So once we got passed that, to like I would have people
to my house. I brought my kids to the, to the International Institute as did Jackie. So we kind of
(--) And we had like little social events and stuff, and we would bring our families. And so that
kind of put everybody on the same footing you know. And then, and then the people that we
were working with would share with us like what was going on in their life, what their life had
been like. Very, I heard very few people got into (--) First of all they may not have had the
English language capability, but second of all they may not have wanted to go too deep into the
horrors that they had lived through. They would talk about being (--) Many, actually the filter,
or the funnel through which at least the Cambodian and the Laotian people came was Thailand.
So they had spent time in the camps in Thailand waiting to be resettled in another country.
And so they would talk about that. And they would talk a little bit about like getting to Thailand
and having to escape, but they didn’t get into the deep pain that they had experienced in their
lives too much. So, but as they talked about their lives and what they hoped for, and who they
10
�were and stuff, and how they felt about this new place, that was the most fun. And it was also
really fun when somebody came back and said, “I got a job,” you know, and you think I had
something to do with you getting that job. So.
K: Do you have any more stories that you want to share, or were there any interesting people
that you can remember that really stuck out?
E: Well I remember, I was thinking about this working earlier today. I can remember the,
whether they were informal or formal, community leaders for the Cambodian and Laotian
community at the time. I can picture the woman, and so right there is a difference. There was
a Vietnamese woman, young woman, well I don’t know. So I was, you know, twenty-eight. So,
but she was not forty-five, who was the, with Hai [Ba] Pho and Lan Pho as the like penultimate
leaders of that community, there was a woman there and actually that could have been their
daughter. I’m wondering if (--)
M: Oh they have a daughter. Yah, I don’t know.
E: I think they had a daughter. Well it could have been (--) It wasn’t a man. There was a
woman. It could have been their like somebody they just was close, they were close to,
whatever, but she was kind of the representative of the community for us there. But I can’t
remember her name and I racked my brain this morning. I’ll see if she’s in any of my pictures
and I’ll email you the pictures. I’ll snap them in. But (--)
M: Elise, if we could borrow the photos we can scan at a high resolution.
E: The actual one? Okay, sure.
M: And we’ll get them right back to you in two weeks or something?
E: Happy to. Umhm. They’ll all be (--) I have everything in photograph albums chronologically
from those years. And so I just, I’ll only need to pull out like three albums and I can go through
those and I’ll find those pictures.
M: Okay, wonderful.
E: But Khamsone Silavong was the Laotian community representative leader. Like everything
went through him. And he lived not too far from me in the Highlands. He had two sons and
one of them developed leukemia while he was here, but he was treated and survived it then.
And because we lived in the highlands I would bump into him on an ongoing basis. And then
the Cambodian leader was Socheat Uch, and he also lived here. He was, well he might have
been older, or he might have just lived a harder life and looked older, you know, but he, I still
would see him. And I probably haven’t seen, I haven’t seen Khamsone in fifteen years anyway,
and I probably haven’t seen Socheat in that long, but I would bump into them all the time
downtown at like Folk Festival or whatever. And they, like they were the leaders in their
11
�community. And both of those men had been farmers in their country. So they were, but they
had like survived and gotten jobs and had families. And their children went to school and were
thriving. And so it was all real good.
K: Could you spell those names or [unclear]?
E: Yah, I think I can. So Khamsone was K H A M S O N E, Silavong S I L A V O N G.
K: What was it? S I L V.
E: S I L , Sila.
M: A
E: A
M: V O N G
K: A V O N G, okay.
E: And Socheat was S O C H, so I’m pronouncing it phonectically. It probably sounded nothing
like that. S O C H E A T, and then his last name was U C H if I’m not mistaken. And I was really
pleased with myself when I pulled those names out of my head today. So those two men were
a part of my life. I have pictures of I think both of them in my albums, but (M: Okay) definitely I
have a picture of Socheat. So you’ll get those.
M: Great.
K: So is there anyone that you’ve kept in touch with from working there?
E: Um, no, not (--) I mean from the student population no, but again living in the Highlands my
kids went to school at the Daley. A significant (--) My kids’ friends, like so my kids new their
kids kind of thing. So I would like bump into the parents at school functions and stuff like that.
And then like all other associations after a while they kind of fade away. Well not all other, but
except for your closest people. So no, I haven’t stayed in touch with them.
K: Did you see the services that the IRF offered change at all while you were there?
E: No, not during. You know, we adapted to the needs of the population, but I don’t recall
being impacted by, but again I could have left that job because the funds were, you know, cut
back so that my hours were going to be too small, and I can’t remember that. But while we
were there, I mean I’m sure that, and I didn’t worry about the budgets first of all. Okay, I got
the fun job of working with the people. I think we had a job counselor too. I think we had
somebody who was like directly involved in making the connections between the companies
12
�and the, our students. And I don’t remember who that was, but I’m pretty sure that, I’m
positive that position existed because I didn’t do that, but that person and I communicated.
And it’s too bad that they’re not even coming to mind. It wasn’t Maria Cunha either. Jackie or
Carol didn’t mention anybody in a position like that?
K: I’m trying to think.
M: I’m not sure. We might have it in the archives, you know, so.
E: Okay, yah.
K: Yah, [unclear].
E: I forget why I went down that road of that question about the job counselor. You had asked
me something that made me (--)
K: Oh, different services that were offered?
E: Yeah, so those, so those were the basic services that we (--) Oh, and so Jackie and Carol as
the Project Directors, or Project Managers, whatever their titles were had to worry about the
funding and like how to balance the funding among the services that needed to be offered. We
also did like language around the hospital, like medical situations, and also around, we did kind
of informal child rearing. How to translate your child bearing practices to this new. So they
just, you know, they said to me you have this much time to, we can pay you for this much. And
then I kind of got to go with what I felt like the community needed in that. You know, what a
great job!
K: [Unclear]
M: Did the community suffer and racism that they brought to your attention when they first
showed up?
E: They were not able (--) I’m sure Hai and Lan would have been able to articulate that and
there’s probably some of the, some, many of the Vietnamese people, but they stopped coming
to the English language classes when they didn’t need those services. So the people I was
working with, and for the most part the people who are using the services of the refugees, the
International Institute were people who were in need still, hadn’t made the launch into
employment and stable housing. So that would have precluded them from, now that doesn’t
mean they wouldn’t have articulated if it had been rampant. I never mentioned to them what I
would hear from white people in the city, but they never said anything about that to me. And I
don’t think there would have been, there wouldn’t have been in a conversation where that
would have been you know, spoken, allowed. And I don’t think they would have necessarily
been familiar enough with our, with our cultural cues to read people’s expressions or, and plus
13
�they were coming out of such difficult circumstances that probably as long as you weren’t like
being overtly aggressive towards them it was fine.
M: Yah.
K: Did working for the IRF change your perspective on anything, such as working with [word
unclear]?
E: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah, are you kidding? It has contributed to why I went back to
teaching in Lowell. In ’88 I went back to teaching in Lowell. So I did some like other stuff that
had nothing to do with anything except making a little part-time money, real estate and stuff
like that for a few years when my, when I had three kids in daycare that was just very difficult to
afford on the salaries of those kinds of jobs that I’m talking about right now, but then I went
back to teaching and I stayed in Lowell. And then when I left the Lowell Public Schools I did
some consulting for a year, but I wanted to come back to the urban environment where the
work that you do empowers the next, you know, the people who need the empowerment and
they’re most often the most recent refugees here, the cultures, the incoming countries have
changed, but the need hasn’t changed. So that’s why I came back here. So I guess, yah, it did.
K: So what did you teach when you were teaching at the schools?
E: I was, actually I was a computer teacher.
K: Oh! Is that what you do now?
E: No, now I’m an administrator, but I (--) Then I started teaching psychology here, but I
actually (--) It was a very fun time to be a computer teacher as the beginning of the like the
infusion of computers into schools in the late 80s. And so I got a job and (--) I got a job, my first
job at St. Margaret’s and they were paying six thousand dollars a year. So that was 1988. And
so someone said to me, “You should apply for that.” And I said, “I don’t know anything about
computers. I’ve never used a computer.” They said, “Yah, but they’re paying six thousand
dollars. Who are they going to get that knows anything about a computer for six thousand
dollars?” So I went in and I got the job, and I like self-taught, you know, figured it out. So then
the Lowell Public Schools got a lot of money to build, to outfit their schools with technology.
And I applied there and got a job there because I had this experience. And what I remember
doing with that, that I think is directly related to my work at the International Institute, I was at
the Wang School for a while and my computer classroom lab was right next to one of the
bilingual, it was the seventh grade bilingual classroom. And the Wang was a Hispanic Magnet
School. So you were either a Cambodian or a Hispanic Magnet School at that time. And so if
you needed bilingual services you went to the schools that provided those kinds of services in
your language.
M: And where was the Cambodian Magnet School?
14
�E: The Daley. So this was a Middle School. So the Daley, and the Sullivan, and the Wang were,
and I believe the Robinson were Hispanic Magnets. The Daley, and the Butler, and the Bartlett
maybe were the Cambodian. So anyway, so there’s this classroom of seventh grade Hispanic
bilingual, needing bilingual services students, and they were predominantly male students at
that point. And seventh grade is a very like ugly time in a kid’s life and they were, many of
them were a lot older than like the typical, or the traditional U.S. seventh grader. They had
either left school, or come in from another country late. So this was like a group of fifteen year
old testosterone ridden young men who were not turned on to school at all, or they wouldn’t
necessarily be in bilingual like not mainstreamed. (K: Right) So my computer lab was right next
door to them. And so, so the bilingual classes came in separately one at a time for computer
classes. And there were some of these young men who like really took to the technology. Well
back in the 80s it seemed like the boys took to the technology. I don’t know why that is,
because I’m like a wicked feminist, but it seemed like I don’t know, girls didn’t have the
confidence to approach it and troubleshoot, and be willing to risk making a mistake and the
boys did. Anyway, so these young men, a lot of them got really engaged in it, and like even
though they didn’t have mastery of the language they could master the technology, then
networking and that kind of stuff. And I would get all these calls all day long from the teachers
who would be like, you know, people like me, middle aged at the time, or whatever,
somewhere, white women, and they would say, “Oh, I can’t, I need help with my computer.”
And my job was to teach students, not to teach them. And so I developed a technology what
do you call them? It was like my tech team, and they were the seventh grade bilingual students
who were always in trouble right. So they were always in the principal’s office. But then all of a
sudden they (--) So when a teacher call and needed help I would ask the teacher of this bilingual
class next door if I could have a student to serve as a tech team person to go out and help the
instructor, the teacher. And so he loved the idea. I mean he and I kind of collaborated on this
idea. And all of a sudden (--) So he started keeping attendance records for the rest of the year,
and he said, “My students had perfect attendance for the rest of the year”, because they were
always hoping that they were going to be the ones that were going down. Because like what a
difference in the power shift of being the person who’s showing your teacher who usually
thinks you’re an idiot, like you know, “What’s the matter with you, you’re always goofing off,”
and you’re showing them how to use a computer is like so cool. So I would say that that like
whole idea of empowering people to, that the language limitation isn’t like, you have
something to offer. That came out of my work at the International Institute, or maybe it was
there and the International Institute fed it, and then.
K: That’s great.
M: Great story.
K: Do you have any more questions?
M: No.
K: I think I’m all set.
15
�E: Okay.
M: Oh I got one more question. So was there a sense of community at the Indochinese
Refugee Foundation.
E: Yeah.
M: How? Describe it for us.
E: Amongst the staff and the people that we served there was a sense of (--) We were friends,
like the people who worked. You can’t work in environments like that, and you’re not sitting
behind a desk and being autocratic, bureaucratic. You’re like all pitching in. And so we all like, I
don’t mean we were friends like we didn’t necessarily, well sometimes we did actually hang out
together, but we were just like all collaborative and collegial, and bringing families in. And so
then the, the refugee population, the immigrant population were like got really (--) They loved
when we would bring our kids in, and our kids and their kids would like hang out together and
stuff. And so you ended up caring about each other in ways beyond any kind of like a service
provider organization. Like in ways beyond what happens in a classroom, in a school. Not that
the teacher doesn’t care about the people, but this was much more holistic. Like you’re
working with the whole person, you’re not just teaching them some subject for six hours a day.
This is their family. This is what’s going on in their life. And our services allowed them to talk
about that and then address all the things that were their issues. So yah, so community evolves
out of that I think.
M: Um. Elise, any finals thoughts about your time with IRF?
E: No, but if I think of any when I send you the pictures I’ll jot down anything else I can think of.
M: Yah, if you can connect with Kale and maybe bring the photos?
E: Yah, I have her email. I’ll do that.
M: She can pick them up, we’ll scan them.
K: Sure!
E: Okay. Okay, I can do, yah, okay. Sure.
M: We’ll give them back to you. That will be great.
E: Looking at the pictures might remind me of some stories.
K: Yah.
16
�M: Okay. Good. Well thanks very much for your time.
K: Well thank you.
E: Okay, my pleasure. It was fun. It was fun to relive that.
Interview ends
jw
17
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA.
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Relation
A related resource
The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Elise Martin oral history interview transcript, 2016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
English language--Study and teaching
Lowell (Mass.)
Nonprofit organizations
Occupational training
Oral history
Political refugees
Refugee families
Refugee issues
Refugees--United States
Social service
Unemployed--Services for
Description
An account of the resource
The transcript of an oral history with Elise Martin on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the organization.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Martin, Elise
Connerty, Kale
Ali, Mehmed
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-24
Rights
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UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.
Format
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17 p.; 21.5 x 28
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
uml4_16.09_i002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell, Massachusetts
2010-2019
Cambodians
Documents
International Institute of New England Lowell
Lowell Public Schools