1 50 10 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/3627865a50950c66e6fb957176a29bc2.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=uMaduuxjE9BUFbRRlb8zRRKmdDI4r0DQlMChO7vrYTr-zfParg0SQSUjCtQY5-cTMe9MYfPn0TDnYlFtSxg16vaa2R8o%7ED0OzLngsu8aL7QyZs%7E013wLq5LcAQrZTNAuAk1B%7EEGu7Af7fQ93%7EjYYbkN%7EAUSIoKFfHrQi3UDHzc5CeGQ-vYx9YXZG3X8QYylf18AX%7Elwndptq2JGZ%7EYFXio07ohbpPvenRzZsoYVQ6IBTtaNr3TmBx%7ErBQFyQQh-8YLYtrR0Exaj4uPgKWT7xIm9%7E7gMlHq14ySeANhDiGLnxCPTjZ3B9DGOQtANpAAd7SJFl17ZZsgnD1piphYQUWA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9886b9eb91515a1bc3e4ac9d250f6432 PDF Text Text UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE PROLEUNG KHMER STUDENT ORAL HISTORIES, 2025 INFORMANT/NARRATOR: SIDNEY LIANG (S) INTERVIEWER: CHAKSHU PATEL (C) DATE: 2025 C: It's just your life story. Whatever you want to talk about, if you're not comfortable talking about something, just let me know. And yeah, so if you just want to start off with that, yeah. S: Yeah, and you plan to transcribe? C: Yeah, so I'm recording right now. And yeah, alright, so... C: Yep, shouldn’t worry. I mean, I don't know what the question is... [laughs] C: Yeah, we’re just talking. So... where were you born? C: Okay. So it's my life story, huh? So I was born in the 70s in the Battambang, Cambodia. I was pretty little then, so picture the beginning of the Khmer Rouge regime, which start about 5 years later. So, I was pretty small, I didn't understand, but I remember a lot of what happened then. But I can still have... Most of the time you have the feelings, you don't remember the words, but you do remember the feelings of how it feels to... I guess, being stayed home and scared. I would feel people yelling, screaming, how it feels like when, you know, people that are just coming into your life, you have no idea who they are. So, I still have these feelings but, at the same time, you don't remember a lot of the stuff that happened. You just, you know, sometimes you hear the scream and they’re screaming probably similar to what you heard when you were young, but you probably don't even know what the screaming's all about. And I've seen missing people, those kind of things. So I was scarred with just a... You know, probably bad thing that happened, which is... One day in November that I see the most is that... I can project to you what I see. Basically, I live in this house and in front of the house, there's this big giant tree and, in front of that tree, there's this well. It's a huge well that, you know, I guess the neighbors would come and get their water or drinking water or bathing water from there. The bad side that I still remember is that... You know what a bamboo bed looks like? C: Yeah, yeah. S: So, on that bamboo bed, lay this person that's covered in a white sheet when I woke up in the morning and I believe it was my father that passed away early morning of that day and just was covered with a sheet and people come by. And during that time of the Khmer Rouge, which is the beginning, people were like ‘You can't express your �feelings. You can't cry.’ You can't do nothing. You just sit there and be emotionless. And then in the evening, also that same day, my brother passed away. So at the beginning of the Khmer Rouge, the very first year, we lost 2 people and, from that time on, it's more like survival mode. You gotta turn that on. So, that's how it began. Survival mode, meaning that you would eat anything. Survival mode, you don't talk to strangers. Everybody's a stranger. People were put together from all different regions, in different areas of the country and just mingle together. So, there were a lot of people that's going in and out of the place, but we have no idea where they went and stuff like that. But that's all I remember of the beginning. I'm assuming a lot of people turn on these modes, the same way where you gotta protect yourself. Which means, you know, you laugh, you cry, based on what they tell you. [Name for organization], which is, like, an organization. Even though Cambodia was... it's a government, right? It's a government between... I think it was April 17, 1975 to 1979? It's a government, but we didn’t call it a government, we called it an organization... Led by Pol Pot, of course. So, that's the beginning of everything. The beginning of like... watching yourself fromwhere you originally were. My family was from a countryside. But a quiet sort of like rich farm owners. We lived okay, comfortably, in the countryside. We're not city people. We just, basically, had some rice fields and all farmings and stuff. But we're not like people who are from the city. So, therefore, very few of our family members could read or write. My uncle was a little bit different. He went to study in France, so he could read and write. My dad could read and write because he was a monk, which means, in the older days, the woman stayed home. You don't get a good education. And the men mostly got their education from the temple. I think that was the beginning of a good and a bad thing because, since my mom could not read or write, we would just follow people from one area to the next. So ,when you lived during the time before ‘75, you're okay, you know? You know you don't need to go to city. You have nothing to do with the city. You have no idea what the city people’s doing. You just, you know, from neighbor to neighbor... Everybody know each other in the village. So, we lived okay. But then, everything changed and we flipped. C: How much do you actually remember from before the... C: What I always remember is the smell. I don’t know about things. I probably had some kind of trauma [laughs]. I have no idea whether it’s trauma or not. But I know that I could smell certain things. I noticed that one thing that I keep telling people is that KitKat... In Cambodia, we call chocolate [socola]. I think [socola] is more like chocolate from, I don’t know, a French word or whatnot. You know, [socola]. So every time my dad would go to someplace... He would disappear and go to wherever he needed to go, I have no idea. Sometimes, when he would go far away and come back, you could smell the chocolate and I remembered it smelled like KitKat and then, he would bring it over, and that’s the smell. And, even now, every time I smell KitKat, it brings me back to the 70s, where I’ve seen things, but I don’t know what’s real or not. �The same thing with airplanes. You would see airplanes up in the sky and you remember... You know when, let’s say when you and I look up at the sky and look at the same plane. I might be standing next to you, but my mind is not here. I’m looking at the plane but I might be in Cambodia next to a house or hut, or someplace. That’s where it is. So, my mind, normally, when I get focused, it’s not here. It’s someplace. I don’t know where [laughs]. Those are the days that I can remember bits and pieces of what happened. C: Do you remember how you got here? C: A long way. In 1979, when the Vietnamese came, right? There’s a lot of stories where the Vietnamese save Cambodia, oh, the Vietnamese saved... Part of it’s true, part of it’s not, depending on which side of the sword you’re at. As I was telling you, my dad passed away, and my mom was like 40 or 30 something years old and, in 1979, there were a lot of Vietnamese soldiers around and basically, they don’t care... They just take what they want. My mother was afraid of the Vietnamese who were walking around our house with their guns and stuff. They took our property. They took our belongings. For example, they took our one and only cow that we were given when we came into the city. And they said they Vietnamese are going to come for you at night time on a certain day. So, my mom got afraid and we ran. We traded our belongings. You know, you had rice and stuff so you would trade it for something and when you have some kind of gold or something, you trade it with rice and you carry that with you. A lot of people know the word [cambodian word]. [Cambodian word] is basically the night before you cook rice. You cook the rice and then you dry it. You dry the rice. Just put it outside and dry it. And you put it in a tube and you sew it from regular materials, you know, like cloth, and you tie it right around the waist. It’s called [cambodian word]. So, what happens is, when you get hungry, you just take a little bit of it and put it in the water and the rice would burst out and it would become rice and it’s already cooked, so you can eat. The other thing, for [cambodian word], is that, when you run, you don’t want to make a kitchen, you don’t want to make any fires, you don’t want to cook anything, because, if you give up smoke, then the Vietnamese or the Khmer Rouge will find you. Because, remember, in 1979, we were not only running away from the Khmer Rouge, we were running away from the Vietnamese and everybody else who were trying to get you. And as a middle-aged women with two young kids, that’s kind of tough. I guess that’s when I became a man, in a way. At 10 years old, you have to do what you need to do to survive. That’s when you start the traveling from... When you see a lot of refugees, sometimes you have to identify what's a refugee, what’s an immigrant, and what are special visa people. We were refugees so we traveled from Cambodia to Thailand. The only closest place to Thailand is from Battambang and that’s how we got �across to Thailand. The first camp we went into was Khao-I-Dang. We walked at night time. In the daytime, we hid away. We paid people because... you can call it smuggling... they smuggled people from Cambodia to Thailand and then they come back. They not only smuggle people, they smuggled rice, they smuggled fish sauce, soy sauce, anything else that they could get from Cambodia to Thailand. There was no money to use, so you used gold, you used silver, whatever you could use to buy. You use your necklace and stuff like that to buy the stuff you want. Then, we got to Khao-I-Dang. I think we were the first 3 camps there. By the time we left in 1983, it was, maybe, I don’t know, 7 or 8 camps that they started there. There were a lot of people there. It’s surrounded by barbed wires all around so you can't get out. And outside of the edge of the camp, there’s patrols by the Thai soldiers and there’s many more stories... Because, you’re a refugee, you get fenced by barbed wires, so thing’s happened. Some of them really bad, some of them really good. You can’t compare it to anything, but it’s just a little bit better than what you’ve been through before. Meaning, like, you’re not going to get... Well, we still get killed, but it’s just a little bit better. There’s bright days and then you also don’t get caught and brought out in the middle of the night and people kill you and those kinds of things. I think, during that time, I was probably 14 years old or something, so I was becoming a young man. What do you do? You learn how to read in Cambodian, Thai, English. At night time, you go to learn Thai and then you learn English and then you learn Cambodian at the same time, so there’s no space for fun. Sometimes, when you get hungry, you just go to one of those U.N. places and try to get some food. But it’s always portioned. If you have 6 people, you get more food and you take a little bit of rice and then you trade for something else so that you can get better canned food, fish sauce, and everything else. But since we didn’t have any family members that came with us, it was a little bit tough because we didn’t have any money or protection until later on. The camp is basically another story in itself. A lot of stuff happened in the camp. I’m going to school and there’s some good stuff too. You gotta give some some credit to a lot of the Cambodian community because where would they go? They tried a lot to preserve their culture and traditions. Even in the camp, there’s still some cultural stuff going on... traditional dances, songs, and everything else. Sometimes we forget all the different things and different events that we left behind. You don’t know whether people are going to preserve that or not, we don’t know. But even here, we have a temple. We have Cambodian School. We have Cambodians teachers and monks and stuff. We always do that wherever we go and it’s up to the next generation to see whether they can sustain it, make it bigger, make it look good, or whatever it may be. The camp is a different story. It’s a long story [laughs]. It isn’t like one of these kdramas [laughs]. Come on, I’m not Korean, ok? �C: [moves microphone] I’m just very scared that the recording stopped. Oh, it’s still going C: Well, you can Google my name and you will probably see a lot of stuff out there, too. There’s some stories from the old days that I remember. Sometimes, when you get older you forget but, at the same time, when you get older, there’s certain pieces of the story that you can see more clearly. But, most of the time, when you get older, it’s a feeling. I guess that why I understand a little bit about the older generation. How they’re afraid as they get older. As I’m speaking to you, my uncle is 92 years old and he’s pretty sick. His cancer is big. But the only thing is that he doesn’t like to sleep alone. So, when you get older that... it clicks because you’re afraid but you’re not going to tell your kid. You’re not going to tell anybody. You just say, ‘put the door open’. That’s why, when you go into Cambodian houses, you see a lot of elders sleeping next to the living room. Or you see a lot of elders just have a little bit of room right by the door where people walk in. And sometimes people say ‘why don’t have you have a place for your mom, dad, grandparent?’. No. They like noises. C: Yeah, they don't like... My grandmother’s the same. She can’t deal with being alone. C: Right. And this is where sometimes... Don’t assume people understand your culture. Sometimes, we should take a minute or two and explain to them. Ask them, like, a 60year-old person, I can tell you, don’t let anybody assume about your culture because they might have left here and you can’t get them back [laughs]. It’s the same thing where you have a lot of elders now, when you go in, they just sit in the living room area where they have a little bed there. If you go to Cambodia or Thailand, you see these little beds square like this and made of bamboo. And, most of the time, the elder, they sleep down there. But, in a way, it’s good for them. They have these bamboos beds that are good for their back and they were pretty healthy in the old days. Nowadays, everything’s not healthy. Even the rice is full of chemical stuff. So that’s one thing that I see in our community, is that a lot of elders choose to stay in an open space. They don’t care if it’s noisy. They like to be in a noisy area because... In the enduring period... We call it 3 years, 8 months, 20 days. A lot of people call it that. Some kids don’t know that. They call it [lists Cambodian words]. Some people know the hours, too. Most of their family were just taken away and didn’t ever come back. Isn't that what's happening right now? [laughs] Well, I don’t want to go there. The reason I’m saying that, even jokingly, is that it’s bad. It’s bad that the community is triggered. The trauma is looking back at the way the government operates. And I mean this government. Today’s government. At the same time, you have places of work, all of a sudden, shut you down. You have some of your friends afraid to connect with you. You have American people... they don’t want to associate with you too much because... It’s one of those things where you become a disease, in a way, that they eliminated. For example, the word ‘DEI’ or whatever the thing that’s in there. The word ‘refugee’ is not �in the name of a certain nonprofit or in a certain organization, or a company. They’re taking it out because they’re afraid. But, at the same time, they don’t look at the community or the residents who are actually very afraid because they’ve gone through this. A lot of organizations, a lot of hospitals, a lot of businesses, they’ve only gone through what’s on paper. But if you’re looking at my community, you’re looking at some other communities, like the Asian community or the Lao communities... We were tortured, killed, and all of this and that and that’s what’s happening now. In the middle of the night, people were taken away and never return and they would get some acknowledgement that the people were killed just because someone ‘oh, I saw your uncle hanging down from a tree’ ‘oh, I came across a corpse that probably looked like your aunt or uncle’. That’s how confirmation was made. For example, my uncle that went to France that I just told you about, they said they hung him from a tree. It’s just because he was white and he looked educated. He could read. He could read and those are things you can’t do. You can read about it but, the thing is that, when you get older, you feel all these things. You feel the pain of your uncle being beaten and taken away. And, all of a sudden, you watch TV here and now, 40 years later, and you see this. Now, it’s a little bit different. What you feel is within your own home. It’s like, like, a community kind of feeling like what happened in Cambodia during that time. Everybody felt the same way. Here, you wouldn’t know. You see somebody open the door and they smile. But you wouldn’t know... Okay, let’s say in Afghanistan where they are being elminiated. They have to self-deport but where are they going to go? Or, let’s say, Haiti is being run by gangs, but where are they going to go? If they go into hiding, they’re going to be afraid of being free and being chased. I know it’s a different story from what I’m saying, what happened in Cambodia, but the feeling are the same. The feeling of people chasing you, even though nobody’s chasing you. But the feeling is basically creeping up on you. You see it on tv, people in chains, people gone, disappear. They come back but now you can’t say nothing. You can’t talk to your kid. Your kids can’t understand. They were born here with cheeseburgers and everything else. They don’t even want fried rice or whatever. If you got friend rice, you’re rich! [laughs] You know what I’m talking about? Like I said, we ate dried rice that’s in a bag and you just keep chewing and that’s how you survive. But kids these days... For example, I didn’t get shoes until maybe I was 10 years old or 11 years old to wear. Some kind of flip-flop. Trust me, I can walk on glass. I can walk on sand [laughs]. It’s painful. Because, when you start walking, your foot starts getting thicker and thicker. I remember we were playing soccer and I could kick a glass, like a drinking glass. A bottle, just smash it open, and nothing happened. I did that. I jumped into the canal and I stepped on an empty bottle and broke the bottle and my foot was okay. Now I can’t. It’s a little different now. And them imagine the kids that were born here. Sometimes, they don’t know a lot. That’s why I said that we’re a little too gentle on these kids. When they’re hungry, we �give them food, and they just give us attitudes and stuff. There’s no option of which food you take. People are like ‘oh, you eat frog?’. Frog is a luxury, you know! [laughs] What are you talking about? Travelling all over. You know the sound of guns. You know the sound of bombs. This is when you were a kid. So now, these kids, when they’re doing firecrackers on the 4th of July, they don’t understand why your parents choose to stay home and don’t go out. They hear ‘boom boom boom’ and then the kids just go outside and throw a big, giant, illegal firework right next door while you’re opening the window and your grandparent is probably hiding under the bed while you’re laughing with your friends outside. So, sometimes they need to look deeper. And they need to learn because their parents are not going to teach them. They need to learn how to ask questions. I mean, ask tough questions. To them, nothing is tough anymore but all I can say is they want to talk. They want to tell you what happened. But you have to be willing to ask the question. If you don’t ask, they don’t know where to start. When they start, see what happens? I just start rambling like crazy. So I don’t know what kind of question should I answer? [laughs] C: This is funny. Whatever you want to talk about. How about getting here? C: Here? C: Yeah. C: Here, my life is a little bit different than most, but nothing crazy. We went to New York, same thing. You got people who spit on you the same way. Who hasn’t been spit on? [laughs] The first time I went in, they put me in eighth grade. Eight grade in New York is basically the end of the year of junior high. My school was PS80 in the Bronx. The Bronx was a little bit different. You don’t speak English so it doesn’t matter who said what to you, right? [laughs] But you know the danger, you feel it. I used to go to school to eat lunch and stuff, just like the kids here. In the summertime, I changed my name so I could go to the same school with my cousins so I could eat lunch and after that I just left to go home. Because I went to a different high school than my cousins in New York. But New York was a little bit tough for us. I remember, when we would go to rent a movie, three or four of us would go together because it’s not that safe. I went to school with a hammer in my backpack. It’s not like I’m going to hit somebody, but it’s just something that you have to do because people are doing the same thing. You got a screwdriver, I have a hammer, you know? [laughs] So there’s the Bronx. The school is pretty far, not that far. If you think about it, it’s from here to maybe about... For me, it’s from here to someplace in Billerica from here. So it’s not that far �but, when you’re living in New York, life’s not that tough but they make it tough, meaning you learn how to take buses. You’re learning how to take trains, switching from one train to the next. Well, you try when you don’t speak English, right? Just shut your mouth and go to a different country and try to do it. It’s crazy. Then people are starting to look at your necklace and looking at your chain and then they would call you ‘chino’, all those kinds of things. But the good thing is that you don’t understand until later on. [laughs] But this is normal for people. It’s a serious topic, but we went through this and I know, for some people, it was really bad, but I wouldn’t treat someone badly just because it happened. We see some Cambodian elders who carry stuff from the grocery and then some kid just grab it from him and drop it. And then just laugh at him. Something happened like that. Maybe life in the 80s was a little bit different. This is in the 80s that it’s happening and it has become normal in a way that people are doing that to each other. And it’s not just, let’s say, the African community or the Latino community, whatever, even the Chinese community. They were doing the same thing when you went to Chinatown. You’re going to use a lot of chopsticks and guns and stuff like that, fighting each other. It’s just the way it was. That’s also how I learned and made good friends. I had some good friends during that time, too. My first best friend was from Guyana. I studied with names like Vic, Khan, Patel, or something like that. So I’m like... okay! But it’s good. I didn’t speak a lot of English but we communicate. We had a lot of good food. He was a really nice guy because he would also, for his look, he was also treated differently as well. But I didn’t know. He spoke English pretty good. Maybe that was his language, I don’t know. So we made friends. And then, my high school... I went to four high schools, you probably don’t know. I went to Fremont High in California. I went to Oakland in California. And then I went to Lowell High here. So I’ve gone through a lot. I have a lot of experience, whether wanted or not. We went to Cambodia – ah, not Cambodia – California, the same thing. My mom didn’t know how to read or write so that’s where it was that there were a lot of Cambodians there. That’s why we went there. But it’s still the same way... it’s survival. But we did okay. Most of the time... Cambodians really do help and support each other. We might see a lot of crazy stuff going on but, in most cases, we really do that. When I came here, I came here for a wedding in 1987, in Lowell. In ‘87, Lowell wasn’t really that perfect either. You probably hear all these different things from the City Council’s mouth and you know, all that. Then there’s always guns and knives and I don’t know whatever’s going on. But when you were from New York... [laugh]. It’s almost like you have all these things inside you but, at the same time, you don’t have these fears like other people because of what you’ve gone through. It’s numb. Basically, you’ve seen it all. And again, some of the people who were here, they came from New York and you’ve �seen them. ‘Yo, why are you trying to join a gang, man?’ [laughs] A gang is like a family to them, I think, just because they couldn’t speak the language. They got beat up by the other type of people and then this other type of people organized and then they became bad. I think the original one was just because they were trying to protect each other. I don’t know, I’m just guessing [laughs]. A lot of people don’t give their credit to the older folks too much because... When we came here, there wasn’t a lot of Cambodian restaurants. There’s CMAA that’s happening. There’s maybe two small corner stores. That’s all you can call a grocery store, but it’s really tiny. The community was close knit. There was only one temple during that time. A lot of people were at the temple. There was not a lot of fighting and there was a lot of stuff going on. Now, with other members of the city, it’s probably different. But for the Cambodian community, that was a united sort of community that made a lot of things happen. There was a bilingual program. There was a temple, like I mentioned. There was also cultural programs that were happening. There wasn’t a lot of businesses. There wasn’t a lot of cultural events going on, but there was more... I don’t know... you could say, there was more meat to what happened. Nowadays, more hollow? Because everybody is in silos in terms of doing other things. If somebody can pull all the Cambodians together inside the city of Lowell, nothing is impossible. So maybe one day, we will make that happen. But, in terms of this journey with the Proleung Khmer. We have a lot of debate with the word ‘Proleung Khmer’. ‘Proleung’ some people say means ‘soul’. You can say that. But ‘soul’ doesn’t mean you’re dead to have a soul. So ‘proleung’, to mean, means ‘blood’. Your blood is flowing through your body, that’s your 'proleung’. But at the same time, ‘proleung’ is your courage. There’s a saying that, if you don’t have your courage, you don’t have ‘proleung,’ meaning that you have your body walking around like a zombie, but your ‘proleung’ is no longer with you. We yell. We scream. We talk bad about some of the Cambodians that don’t have ‘proleung’ meaning it’s gone. It’s not a bad thing. It means that what happened to them is gone. This is what happened to a lot of our elders. ‘Proleung’ is gone from their body, from their soul, in a way, but they’re walking around. I used to call it the haunted people because they are just walking around. They don’t have the feeling of love. They don’t have the feeling of enjoyment. They don’t have the feeling of looking at a success thing that’s going on. They just live. They lost all their families, so they just give up. Giving up is basically that your ‘proleung’ is dead. But that doesn’t mean that you die. What it means to me is that your blood flow through your body. That’s your ‘proleung’. Your ‘proleung’ could be physical. Your ‘proleung’ could be mental, spiritual, all that. The word ‘proleung’ will resonate with people differently. But I’ve seen that most of our elders, if you talk to them, people a little bit older than me, it’s just one of those things where, if you beat them upside down, they wouldn’t move. You say ‘why don’t you just sign here, will you �do this’, they wouldn’t move. Because they just don’t want to move. They’re not interested. You ask them, say, ‘what food do you want?’. They would say ‘oh any one you want to give me is fine’. But what food do you want to eat? And they say ‘oh no, anything is fine’. Because, again, how do resurrect the Cambodian proleung? I use the word ‘proleung’ because I don’t want to use ‘soul’ because it doesn’t mean ‘soul’ to me. It doesn’t mean spirit to me. ‘Proleung’, to me, is the Cambodian body. It’s in the body, everything. From head to toe. So, proleung, for a lot of Khmer elders, they’re gone. For a lot of younger ones, they hear ‘proleung’ but they don’t fully understand what ‘proleung’ is. They can say ‘I have proleung, oh I have proleung’. You have a small kid that’s like [speaks Cambodian], all your spirit has run away from you. The kid is sick or something so they make this ceremonial, start calling proleung to come back and through the body and those kinds of things. Religiously. But again, there’s no right or wrong when it comes to proleung. I’m just saying my proleung is a little bit different. If you divide it into two different generations... for the older folks, I would say, just based on my experience working with the community, a lot of their proleung is gone, meaning, I would say, 80% 90% of the time, their proleung is not with them. And again, that doesn’t mean they are dead. They’re right here sitting in front of you, talking to the grandkid, talking to the children, but they’re not there. You need to open their door and get their proleung to come back and that takes time. But, at the same time, nobody even dares to open that door or know how to open that door. How do you heal somebody or something that you can’t see? But people need to try and I haven’t seen anybody trying. If you go to your friend’s house, maybe who’s Cambodian, and you’ll see an older lady sitting outside or sitting inside and looking through the window, you will see an older person sitting by himself, looking at his Facebook, smiling and laughing or whatever, and you might just see an older person just laying in bed. What you see is not what you see. You see a person, but not his or her proleung. This is the sad part and this is where I want to do stuff but I can’t do it alone because there’s no programs. Over here, you need evidence based data. How the hell do you tell data when somebody’s proleung is gone? But now you have to justify to somebody who has never gone through this horrific event and that person sits there and his proleung is gone. I don’t have time for that [laughs]. You can’t teach people who’re not willing to learn. You can’t teach people who can’t feel it. That’s why I’m saying that, now, you talk about people being afraid. Hell, you have no idea what being afraid means! You have no idea what being chased after means. You have no idea, you’re standing in front of somebody you love but you can’t pull your emotion out. You have no idea. But, at the same time, you’re standing there and, all of a sudden, if this guy is just crying and you call him crazy. You call him ‘oh, he’s cuckoo’ now because he’s just all of a sudden crying. So they label you and they give you a lot of stuff but... one day, you can take this and you can chop it into pieces and you break it up, then you can try to identify what I’m talking about. You know, a man standing and crying. He’s not crazy. �It’s just that, all of a sudden, something clicked. Maybe he saw something and it clicked. You have no idea what kind of emotion is coming through. You see an older lady standing on the side of the road, not doing anything. Her mind’s not there. Her mind, maybe, is walking around the river someplace in her country that she can never go back. They can’t go back to the country, now. They’ll die here. But they don’t know how to die. They don’t know how to die in this country. People are just putting you to sleep. When people die in Cambodia, you would see relatives coming in and doing some ceremony stuff. They sit down, they talk, but sometimes, of course, nowadays, they just isolate you and you die. So, this generation’s a little bit different than the older one. Some people die alone because they don’t have relatives anymore. Some people die alone because the new generation can’t take the torment, the trauma, whatever that their parent brought here, so they put their parents in some place and let them fight their own demons. In reality, they’re almost gone. So this is good. You can go and talk to people some more. They like to talk. You’re going to hear a lot. You’re going to hear a lot. When they tell you stories, that means you gave birth to something. In Cambodia, they call it [Cambodian]. They just like to tell their stories. That’s why I just keep telling my kids, talk to people, talk to them, if you can make them smile, that’s good. You can see and can just bring them back a little bit because, some people, they keep living in 1975 and they never got out. A lot of people that are looking through the windows, their minds are in 1978, 1979, or ‘76. They’re there. Dead bodies, gun shots, trauma, which is nothing. Everybody’s gone through it. There’s a lot of events going on in the U.S. There’s a lot of counselors waiting to talk to these Cambodian people. There’s no counseling. There’s nobody talking to them about it. They have nightmares... For us, that’s that just way it goes. It’s called ‘karma’ in religion. What you did in the past, now you carry to the future, you have to deal with it. So everybody who is buddhist tend to believe that’s what they did. So they suffer alone. They don’t want to share their karma with their kids because they might give bad karma to the kid or the next generation, so therefore they take that so they just break that chain so their kid doesn’t have to go through the same thing with them. I’m like... eh, might be true, might not, I don’t know [laughs]. I can’t say nothing. But if you’re talking about ‘proleung,’ to me, it just means a lot. Not just the soul of somebody. You can be the soul of your community. Proleung basically embodies who you are and it’s passed down from generation from your family to you and how you handle your trauma. You see a lot of Cambodian walking around, especially the older ones. I feel bad because sometimes you’re walking and people don’t see what I see. I see an older person walking around with a cane. I look at the person and I see bags and bags of all the stuff that this person is carrying, that nobody could see. You could see the chain that he or she is dragging, that the grandkid don’t see, but I see. It’s not just an assumption either, just because 99% of Cambodians who went through that time were �traumatized, basically went through hell. If it doesn’t effect you, you must be an angel [laughs]. That’s what I look at most. I want the new generation to dig deeper, stop fighting each other, just look at your family. What’s the soul of your family, because the soul of a person from this family might be different. And how you view it. That’s why, if you put in ‘proleung Khmer’, it could mean anything. It could mean a dead uncle woke up from the dead, or something. It could mean that you muster up the courage to do something. To me, it just means everything. If you want to talk about our cultures. If you want to talk about personal life... I can say that half of my proleung is some place, I have no idea where [laughs]. You do see things that can’t go away. And also, a lot of people here think that, when you talk about trauma, when you see stuff over there, they just give you medication. Why don’t you just talk to people, sit there and talk for hours. I feel like there should be a community for these folk to just spill their beans. Let them say what they want to say. They’re not dangerous. They just need to get it out. I don’t know. I feel like, before they die, they should be free and I feel like they’re not free. One is the Khmer culture tied them up and then the American culture also tied them up, so they don’t know where to go, which means they’re all twisted and they’re hiding right now. Also, they are just waiting to leave and they should be in a step where they can just freeze all this sadness, all this pain and suffering that they went through, and now they have to, some how, of all this pain that they went through, they don’t want to give that to their grandkid because their life is like heaven in the U.S. Therefore, they don’t want to bring any kind of dirt into the house, so they want to leave that dirt there. Therefore, you carry it with you but, at the same time, it’s getting heavier and heavier and now you’re adding the American culture into it where, ‘oh I can’t say you’re fat’. You know that a lot of folk from the countryside gave their kids ugly names? Being called fat is good. It means prosperity, a good thing. The kids, these days, you call them fat and they said ‘I’m not fat!’. Oh, shut up. Sometimes you have to understand where your parents and grandparents are from. You can’t just, all of a sudden, grab a new culture and you think that’s yours. But when you go with the American people... ‘Excuse me, what is your culture?’ ‘American’. You have to understand where you’re from and then change it to whatever you want. Understand your community and then you can blend it into whatever you want. Understand where your grandparents or your parents are from so that you don’t live in that shadow. So you can clear it up the road and then you move forward but knowing where your skeletons are and stuff. My generation will probably [unclear] sooner than the older generation. The older generation want to take it themselves. They are really strong mentally. But they also suffer the most mentally. Then, it comes down to their physical pain now, where a lot of them have a lot of problems, internal and external stuff. There’s not a lot of people who can understand them. Even professors, even teachers. It’s almost like, don’t teach about fear if you don’t know what fear is like. Don’t talk about Cambodian culture if you have �no idea what the food tastes like. All the emotions going through different things, what it’s like. Again, one culture from the village and one culture from the city in that same Cambodian community is not the same. So, I don’t know if you’re getting anything out of this [laughs]. C: I’m getting plenty! I love this. C: That’s what I have. [unclear]. Most importantly, my goal is that I want to free the elders. I can’t free the elders without their family understanding why they are, sort of, jailing themselves. I use the word jail... It’s a literal translation from a Cambodian word called [speaks Cambodian], meaning ‘a jail without walls’. People use that. I want to use it as a little small... It’s a self-imprisonment because it was taught that way or it instilled fear in them. That’s why I keep saying you don’t know what fear is until you... again, until you dig the grave for your own kid, you dig the grave for your own grandparent, you dig the grave for this. But in all this different hard work, they are outsiders. You are not supposed to feel anything. So now you don’t feel anything. You give them $5,000... nothing. The kid graduated from college? They just sit there. It’s hard to break this. It’s hard to show the emotion because they’re still afraid. And then... I haven’t even talked about guilt. This is just the flow of life. But then, there’s guilt. Guilt where, like, ‘oh, just give me whatever you can’. I can give my personal guilt. My sister was really young. She was small. She was, like, 6 or 7 years old. She was born in 1976, so she was tiny during that time. So I was assumed to be the youngest and, even though I’m the second to the youngest, I got more food. I got stuff to eat. It’s like the same thing. If you have kids, you’re going to feed the little one more than the older one, right? So that’s how I got more food. My brothers always say ‘mommy, why do you keep feeding some of my portion to him? Why do you do that?’. And then my mom would keep saying it’s because he’s smaller than you. So, here I am at 55 years old and I’m still here. I still feel guilty about it. Why? Because of this food, maybe, that’s why I survived? Or, maybe, my mom neglected my brother and that’s why I survived? You look through and this is just a normal way of life, but guilt is guilt. You can’t make somebody not feel it because you explain it to them. And I’m just talking about... honestly, internally, that sticks with you until the day you die and it just won’t go away. This is small, but it doesn’t go anywhere. Now, you imagine these folk that are sitting around the house that don’t even know how to talk about this. Don’t know how to say anything, so it’s all bundled up. Then, I could throw out numbers. 99% of the time they are all bundling up, their smile is hollow. Their laughter is guilt. Their laughter is not wide open. Their sorrow is also, sometimes, not real because they were taught that way. This is not like in school where teachers teach you. They were taught to make sure you know this inside and out. They would go and spy on their parents. Spy on their neighbors. Basically, it’s survival but, then, it’s in you, but then it’s guilt. And all 97% or 98% of the people who went through that had a �family member killed. And sometimes, there’s missing family members that they’re not telling people about because, when they open to speak, they have to speak about everything. So, they don’t know if their missing family member is out there someplace in Cambodia or they were killed someplace and nobody knows. There’s a lot of stuff going on and it takes their family to be interested in what they do. And that’s why I said we have a bunch of haunted people walking around in the community. They’re not haunting anybody, but they are wounded, in a way. They’re traumatized. They’re walking around with a nest in a circle with a little bit of thorn. It’s not a physical thorn but it’s a mental thorn that surrounds you and surrounds your physical being and you can’t do nothing about it. That’s what you do, you sit still by the windows. Your kids might as you to go to the mall. You bring them over. You bring them over for them to protect you or whatever, as an older person you’re just... okay, I’m being involved. I don’t have to think too much about anything. So there should be a lot of that going on so they don’t have to be in afraid mode 90% of the time or 24 hours a day. They don’t want to eat too much food because they might enjoy it. There’s guilt. They don’t want to laugh too much, just because they might feel guilty. You know, why are you enjoying all this life now, but your sister is dead, your brother’s dead, your aunt or uncle is dead? You can’t go see beautiful things because they couldn’t see it. Now, a lot of people will say, ‘well, it’s on them. Why wouldn’t they just free themsleves?’ Yeah, if I go cut your hand and say ‘why won’t you grow a new hand? It’s on you.’ It’s the same thing. I mean, of course they were put there and they can’t get out and that’s what a lot of folks see. Like I said, honestly, I do feel guilty about the stuff that I went through. The same thing, laughing too much, you should have your brother, sister, laughing with you with different jokes. Go see a movie, you should have your brother go see a movie with you. You get into a fight? Your brother should be coming to protect you and all that. Or you’re going to school and you should have your dad driving you up, but you don’t have that. You should go to the temple, you should hold the hand of your aunt, your uncle, your dad, whatever. You don’t have that. But you don’t see any of that. This is mentally inside you. But it becomes normal where it’s like... What does having a dad feel like? I don’t know. I have no idea. What did your dad look like? I have no idea. I might have seen it. I might have seen a picture of them. I probably know. But I can’t tell you what he looks like. I have no memory in terms of what he looks like. My mom says, ‘hey, he looked like John Travolta!’. I said, yeah right [laughs]. So, those things are inside a Cambodian person walking around you and their kids don’t know. Their grandkids don’t know. Their family members don’t know. Their friends don’t know. Their monks don’t know. Most of the time, you see this disconnect, but you can ask them. I don’t know any of this... Well, you should ask and learn how to connect. There’s the difference of proleung in each and every one of them and their proleung, most of the time, is not there with them. It doesn’t mean that the proleung can’t come back. Proleung can always come back. How you deal with it and how you figure out �ways to get your proleung back is a little bit different. I don’t know why people don’t add that to the healing journey. Proleung is a journey of itself because proleung don’t stay still. Proleung moves based on your trauma history, based on your actions. That’s how your proleung is with you. To me, it flows thorugh my blood, my proleung. Sometimes it’s a lot of things that people talk about. That’s your identity, that’s your proleung. It could be your family. There’s a lot of meanings. So, when somebody said ‘proleung is your soul’, ok... That’s for them. That’s what their meaning is. So your proleung could be a little bit different than what it is. C: What do you think about this exhibition that’s happening? C: Well, this is going to be displayed, so.... [laughs]. No, it’s a really good thing and I think it’s a good beginning because it has a lot of stuff right. I would say... there’s a buffet. And, hopefully, one day, it will become a main course. When it’s a buffet, you’re going to have a lot of variety of foods so you can’t just focus on one. I think there’s a lot of different variety. Also, it’s a good thing because, like I said, proleung is not about sadness. It’s not about happiness. It’s not about marriage. It’s not about the way you look. It’s about all of them. It’s a good program to have when there’s so many varieties happening. It’s a good start and I think, if there’s a way to sustain it, that would be nice. But, I guess, one thing at a time. This is a good start. If there’s a way to highlight it, then highlight it. If you’re good with computers, you might pick words that I say and then shoot it in, and then let’s see what comes out. What kind of rambling thing that comes out. You don’t know what it is until it comes out, but it might be something. All of this stuff here, if you don’t have the feeling, the emotion, the taste, you’re not going to know what it’s like. Sometimes you can get to really know everything about the Cambodian culture or the Cambodian community but, if you lack those feelings, you don’t know. Because I can get my kid to do research and write a good paper on it, but she doesn’t know what it’s like to be hungry. And she doesn’t know what it’s like to be yelled at. She doesn’t know what it’s like to be spit on, being all tied up and sitting in the rice fields some place. You don’t know what it’s like when you’re hearing sounds in the middle of the night, when somebody next door is being killed. You don’t know what it’s like seeing a big, giant hole being dug up so that they can just put more bodies in. You don’t know what it feels like to be waiting in the rain for some water to come down into your porridge to eat. What it’s like when you’re 7 or 8 years old going out there and trying to make new work. What it’s like to have some family member together and you don’t. So, these are some of the things that encompass everything together but, at the same time, it’s a bad word but it is what it is. It’s just hard. It’s hard all the way. This is just a normal person’s life story. We aren’t adding politics into it. We aren’t adding anything else into it. These are the pure stories. When you ask them. For example, my uncle was hung from a tree because they thought �that he was affiliated with some kind of movement. Oh, my uncle got hung from a tree because he’s a scholar. My dad died because he used to be a soldier, so he was starved to death. My brother died because of starvation. You add all this up. But then people will say, ‘oh man, I’m so hungry’. Oh shut the hell up [laughs]. You have no idea what hungry means. You have a lot of variety of water and you say ‘oh, I’m thirsty. Give me a beer’. Yeah, try drinking dirt water while it kills you at the same time. All this and that that you see. There’s so much stuff here that people keep overlooking. The really small things. And that’s why I say... this journey of 50 years. We’re still on that same road and some people still sit there on that road and haven’t really moved anywhere. So, it could be a journey and it could be not, because I can guarantee you that there’s a lot of other people, older people, who are still in one place. That journey ain’t going nowhere. They might have a little food here to distract them. Grandkids to dance for them and sing. At the same time, new clothes, maybe. New food smells. But they haven’t moved for 50 years. They have not moved an inch for 50 years. And sometimes these are the folks that we need to go back and sit with them, listen to them, play their music sometimes. We don’t have to play rap music because this is 2025. You don’t have to add new tunes just because we have to move forward. You don’t have to buy, I don’t know, a 14th generation iPad when that person sitting on the edge of the road has no idea what a computer looks like or are afraid of touching a computer. We are moving too fast, we are losing our emotion, we are losing our feelings. At the same time, we are on this journey to go some place that, sometimes, you just zig zag in between. So, when you ask me what I think about this... I think it’s all good, but I’m one of those people who are not in line with a lot of things because I do see many folks who won’t be able to move anywhere. And there’s nothing you can do about it except make their life enjoyable. Make their life more comfortable. Make their life more intune to what happened. I would say, bring the future to them. Not bring them to the future. Bring the future to them a little bit. They’re not going to leave the past, so bring the future to them. Bring them a little taste, a little smell, bring them little things. And who knows? Maybe they can get up and walk forward, even little steps. It’s a metaphor. It’s going to be hard [laughs]. All the folks, if you go to the temple, you’ll see a lot of people who could not move. But, if they talk about proleung Khmer, their spirit will begin to move a little bit. They are probably gone, in a way, they’re in a happy place. But their present time and their past are sitting intertwined with each other. That sometimes makes the children a little bit angry because they think ‘oh, it doesn’t matter what I tell you, you just can’t let go’. Well, they let go spiritually. They’re not holding anger to those people who killed their families and stuff, but letting go to all the pieces that were destroyed and whatever that’s happened. Yeah, but you just couldn’t see because you get so angry seeing what you want to see and not seeing what they are showing you. There’s a lot of people in the middle of the road, not going anywhere. This journey may be 50 years but, at the same time, we need to also look at those who could not get on the road for �whatever reason. They just stayed by the edge of the road because, physically, I still have in my mind those who could not get on the road. They were killed. They were old. They were sick. But, at the same time, there are also people who are on the road who are really sick mentally, physically, whatever, but the journey remains the same. Even though 50 years. And I would say, another 50 years, they are going to stay there. So, what are you going to do? You don’t want the community to go and help either but, as a family, you should know... Ask a grandkid. You should know where your grandparents are at. They may not want to because it’s 2025, I don’t want to go back to 1976 or 1979 or 1978. Maybe you should! You’re not going to die, but at least you would know where your parents are that. Where did they get lost? The journey may be looking forward, but I would say to go back to where they are right now. They might sit here looking out the window, but ask them where are they? Are they in 1979? Are they at 1976? Or maybe they are still someplace, but they have to go and find them. Because, looking at them... They have GPS, come on, go look. That’s all I got for you! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sidney Liang oral history transcript Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-23 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Sidney Liang and Chakshu Patel about his journey to Lowell. He details his life in Cambodian before immigrating to the United States. He also speaks in detail about how the community can help the elder generation that still struggle with their past. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Patel, Chakshu Liang, Sidney Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/0527003db009aa244f0f9a3503f38374.m4a?Expires=1792627200&Signature=A5zLPRP2e7267Ozlm8-LiHXfiUSj-h%7EcJDM%7EzT%7EFFL-gahpB7KzlTUvNzxKQBcvBvLQ6dqGxp-lC%7E51-zR0H7bqZXWIXEwE-qI-e7S32rkDWMeRlPcnIWP7k6mmrWDo6XIQeWJBrH0JchLjIiitcAFFPnv0e5RcjKjnSIlhWvWr3dPZrMnJC6lY9mdDXEBHv5gzM7Q9qJq5-Q1EErb3kQgJrwOJj4YWX5lFEAsFJBzWBSfR7hUwoIGEcre143kh9oelyKcdIXmlt8NnReSKSF%7EBRqInCILUWUAmhWrHla6%7EkhoUjNOjbkqF3mSjawrPcgyFmrg-eZPmyjIbLBJ3XMg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7ac6eefb8be478445a2de2e5df7b3c2b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sidney Liang oral history recording Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-23 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Sidney Liang and Chakshu Patel about his journey to Lowell. He details his life in Cambodian before immigrating to the United States. He also speaks in detail about how the community can help the elder generation that still struggle with their past. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Patel, Chakshu Liang, Sidney Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/ec2a58fcde5ac1151ba36685d7ee1fb6.m4a?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ZCNyyES%7EMETc8QNabKrv0r9b8es6pugmB5bjcz2%7EYnqUwzf33oN%7EpdksjhbfAUnG3v12w5MhAFcee0izpnd6uEFXp-CCinfkCuCxUaIk3JoRlliZh9LeXjZP0txUSVrLfoiymTSqK6%7EWLQuvad5Txh7VCUSfo81l7xwwB08aLhXwkxDFsvOiMxHMoqvEcjms7StKaTArJxUx%7EWqMa2d4Z9j5Sq65tc9rAqSE0ApqSj3UVa2mcCLOT0hzgfOQbAGmknVGH9FYrrtwg1S-iaitnlUMleuJ8I3QloKqHjawx6P-MYVNLnkQZpOFid-FZZTrRIDQC-WEsVjpKvmyVmKLvg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7ac6eefb8be478445a2de2e5df7b3c2b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samkhann Khoeun oral history recording Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-12 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Samkhann Khoeun and Chandaranee Khoeun about his life in Lowell; discusses his time at the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association (CMAA), early life in Lowell, reflections about the Cambodian community's growth over the past 30 years, and the maintenance of Cambodian heritage and culture in the United States. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Khoeun, Chandaranee Khoeun, Samkhann Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Community development Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Group identity Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/2dd25bb296f714bb0b8a607dfc6f955c.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=eUbIY6uw5byZqbM9DPF1pWfdgi%7EpZhIVBTxpJjsoHZPy6LpVIMUXyB7L0X0CW07sKFxPWQgSqsA7nyoivHq7-Ug4lgeqo82L-9zN1vP6IImpQlLdy1-1DHxMozmWOYQt6Q5oPRMWiMSlj3ojVqcwJV08DSEkzvOQqZ10m2ZeJF98Nsyf6BZOXThFzLffzM4MP1BYAAkluYF02q5JpUAdX-rAt6prMq7NtQ6D-IGZSPvRR6GYbW0P37KbDu1tA7zMD2d5wxQPrnpOcvpz-STpI8QY5Vpffs-%7EzAF-UsEl4a0nl8zPf58jGoJh0vg01GwA-PQqp7SY0z-Swz2xroUtrw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 026a6f30da6fde41a1f3827ff2b9c89b PDF Text Text UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE PROLEUNG KHMER STUDENT ORAL HISTORIES, 2025 INFORMANT/NARRATOR: SAMKHANN KHOEUN (S) INTERVIEWER: DARANEE KHOEUN (D) DATE: MARCH 12, 2025 S: Eat and talk at the same time. D: Haha, okay. Well, good to know. It is March 12th, 2025, we are interviewing Samkhann Khoeun, long time resident of Lowell, Massachusetts—also my father—at Nibbana Cafe at around 12:19pm right now. So, to begin, can you introduce yourself, including what brought you to Lowell and how long you've been here? S: Right. Well, just like you say, my name is Samkhann Khoeun. I've been here in Lowell since February 5th, 1995. But what brought me here was a job opportunity with the CMAA, also known as the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association. I was brought in as the first or the second Cambodian American Executive Director, to have lead the organization at the time, where we had an office on 125 Perry Street in Lowell, prior to moving to Jackson Street, and of course, the current space at School Street. D: Okay. Well, good to know. When you first came here, what was the Cambodian community like? Was it different from your previous community? Were there any outstanding issues, etc.? S: Yeah, it was quite different. Moving from Chicago, one of the modern city in America, in the Midwest where the street running east, west, north, south, and big buildings and bigger city in terms of population-wise. But for the Cambodians, there's smaller population there than the one in Lowell, because Lowell is one of the oldest cities. So the layout, the city, and all that kind of stuff was really, really, really different. It's like a ghetto back in early 90s, where there's no street sign. It's completely, completely different from what we have today. Lowell has come a long way to be what it is today. Where back in the old days, there was a lot of subsidized housing. Houses that were left unattended or unmaintained by absentee landlord due to the, again, the economic crisis back in the 70s, so what was left, pretty much—I mean, was unproperly maintained. So it's come a long way. Yeah, and yeah— D: Continue, if you have anything else to say. S: So Lowell, the layout—you know, of course, the city was built—Lowell city is built for, for old, old time, where there's horse, carts and bicycles and all kinds of—it wasn't built �for auto. And, of course, it was the—a lot of history in Lowell, to the mill and the textile industries and all that kind of stuff. It's unique. But it also city where it provides plenty of affordable housing. All those, it's substandard housing to former refugee, from Southeast Asia, namely the Cambodian, the Laotian and Vietnamese, and, Thai, [unclear] and Hmong, among a few other minority group from Southeast Asia just make an ideal location for ... [unclear]. D: In terms of the community members itself, though, did you notice any particular traits that they have, like I—considering my research project before, especially with immigrants—not immigrants, excuse me—refugees coming into the States, they were particularly quiet. They didn't want to talk to anyone. They kept it themselves for the most part. Was there a lot of that when you first came to the city? Were they together and on their own, and did you notice any tensions between them, and any other residents, anything like that? S: Yeah, just like any other group of coming into the to America, the Cambodians at a time, they start coming here and in the in the 90s—I mean, in the 80s. And, of course, early 90s. It was—I came in 1995, so it was still early. There was a so-called Cambodian Association, really, that was formed in 1984 to 6. And because there was a makeshift temple at North Chelmsford, Trairatanaram and the Glory Buddhist Temple on Cambridge Street. Other than that, there's a few restaurants and grocery store here and there. And there's some service industries, insurance—KK Insurance was one. There's a few others established, like at the time was [unclear] restaurant. And there was Luna restaurant, and it no longer in exist, and it is Hong Kong or the Mekong restaurant and grocery store. And then later on, there's other development, like the Pailin Plaza that you see here today. But back then, there was none of that exists yet. And, yeah, there was tension between other groups, particularly the Southeast Asian and the Latinos community. A lot to do with territory. A lot to do with racism and discriminations and street violence. So there's a whole lot of other sort of issue between the two group, particularly among the among the youth group, and that sort of—one of the ways we responded to that crisis, that issue, was to create a charter school. So the charter school that established today on Jackson Street, the Lowell Public Charter School, was in response to the need of the population in dealing with education, and dealing with— because we couldn't get the Lowell Public School to make the necessary change to address the need of the Southeast Asian and the Latino community, so we create our own school, charter school, to address the education. It all comes down to education. When people do not understand each other, do not talk to each other and all that kind of stuff. So the Cambodian leaders and the Latinos continue to come together and say, "You know what, hey, there's some opportunity we need to do, to work together to create the education, so that we can provide education to the kid." And emphasize about the culture, about the history, about the language, about the dance and music, and so forth. So with that, without education, we hope to diffuse some of the misunderstanding, some of the �stereotypes, some of the negative aspect of the community, so we can understand each other more. We can foster better relationships and form, you know, working in our partnership in among the Latinos and the Cambodian community. And it was, it was a— well, it was a privilege, you know, to help create that charter school that still exists today. D: Wow. You have never told me about that. So you had a hand in creating that school with— S: Yep. D: Wow. Okay, good to know. S: I also had worked with the Lowell Public School to create the Khmer language program, in high school, where there's—people can learn Khmer language as part of their international language program for any high school to graduate from high school, you got to have at least two years of world language. So the Khmer language being integrated as a world language, not as a bilingual, but as a world language. So we have four, 500 students taking the class every, every year. So that was one of the program that we, that I help initiated as well, and it still exists today. D: Yeah, I'm not quite familiar with all the programs that Lowell—excuse me, Lowell High School has just because, like, I don't really talk to the—I don't talk to, like, any of their staff or superintendents and all of that sort. But from what I hear, their programs are quite robust in terms of catering to the Southeast Asian population, particularly the Cambodian population, just because that's the largest Southeast Asian ethnic group in Lowell. S: Well, because, they respond to the need, because back then, people were asked to take, “Hey, you take French, you take Portuguese, you take Latin, you take Spanish.” But you know, Lowell’s makeup, particularly Lowell High School’s makeup, about 30, 32% of Asian American. Majority them are Cambodian American, and they require that they take, you know, two years of world language, and they can't take any of their parent's language. So that's why it's a need. We have petitioned—we have get the parent to sign and ask that Khmer language be added as one of the language at the Lowell Public School. So that's how we get it done. Took us a year and a half, took me about a year and a half or so to, again, have the Lowell Public School appropriate fundings and hire the staff and all that kind of stuff, you know, to get that language going, yep. D: Were there similar initiatives for the other populations, like Vietnamese, Lao, Thai, that sort of thing? Or was it just—did it just start with them? S: Just the Cambodian. Cambodian, because there's not enough, there's not a big number of Lao. There's not a big number of Thai or Vietnamese here, in Lowell. And the largest is �Cambodian American, so that's why we get the Khmer language, you know, program, yeah. D: I believe at the time you came to Lowell, the Lowell public school system, particularly the like elementary to middle school systems, were still in the process of rearranging themselves, redistricting themselves, due to a desegregation lawsuit that happened a few—like a decade, not even a decade prior, like, a couple of years earlier, S: Yeah, you were telling me before. D: Yeah, it's what I worked on before. Yeah. I'm like, trying to think of how to word this because it's a— S: There's a lot, there's a lot of need. People need to learn English, particularly, you know, employment skill. And still might be starting from scratch, that you got to teach them pretty much everything. When I was a CMAA director, we have programming services that from daycare, preschool all the way to elderly, anything in between. The young parent program, the Monorom Family Support Program to help student with mental disability and [unclear], elderly program where we provide health educations and Tai Chis and field trips and, of course, the other thing that we do, provided these citizenship program to teach elder. You know, although [unclear], so that they can pass the citizens test, we recruit teachers and train them and then sent them over to teach at the two temples, the Trairatanaram and Glory Buddhist temples, because they don't have the transportation or to come. But the CMAA at the time open pretty much seven days a week, we have one of the largest drop by, stop by youth program. Yeah, drop in youth program. So in the whole city, even bigger than boy, you know, Girl and Boy club and Big Brother's Club, or even the Girl Incorporate Club. Pretty much the place was where students come in and get help with their homework, learn traditional art forms and musics and dance and language and computers and you name it. We have one of the largest, yeah. So the need of the community. D: So address the needs of the community, of course. In terms of your time at the CMAA, especially since now you're talking more about it—when you came into the position of Executive Director, were there any issues that you wanted to address, or did you just want to, like, really bulk up the current like offered programs of like—oh, child support, or, you know, child daycare support, family support, the Monorom program, senior support, etc. Were there any other like outstanding issues that you wanted to address? Were there any, like, long term plans that you wanted to implement? S: Yeah, so the goal, you know, at least when I was the Executive Director there was to really help the Cambodian American, or the Cambodian, the former refugee to become self-sufficient, but at the same time trying to promote the art, the culture. So we're sort of �multi-approaching, multi-approach to addressing the need of the community. On the one hand, to really educate the adult, and so that they can learn the English, the job skill, English, the whatever, the necessary skill that they can be employable and be able to make money. At the same time to also help the youth to learn, to do work academically in school, but also to learn about the art, the culture as well. So, that way, there is a whole idea to bridge the generational gap between the two group, so that way they can have— able to have a better communication among the family members. Grandchildren, talking to grandparents, and vice versa. Because, you know, the younger learn English faster, so they lose the native language, and the parent, the grandparent, do not speak proper English and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lack of communication, and thus, there's a miscommunication, and a lot of other issue that's happening with just within the community. And of course, the community at large like to bridge the gap between what's going on in the community and the community at large, the mainstream community, the host community, the Lowellian community. How do we foster a better relationship, foster better understandings? So we use multi-approach to do that right there. So that's—it educated community about the mainstream system, but also the mainstream community about our culture as well. You know that we had come another big project that I brought it in was that the Khmer New Year festival we have held that at the Tsongas arena, where all community member invited to be part of, to celebrate, the Khmer New Years and all that kind of stuff. The mainstream community member as well as Lowell and Cambodian American as well. And then, of course, opportunity also to dealing with the environment, dealing with other issue that we have, that is the sub-housing in Lowell. Back before 1978, all the painting there—was done on the house was all with lead. And then, of course children who know better, know better about what's going on. They it causes health issues. So we address that issue by educating people about it. And then to the kid exposed to lead, the home environment. And, of course, there's community member who also like to change their own car oil. And then, of course, they, instead of properly disposed, they—all the old oil and proper place, they drain it through the—to the draining system. And it go down to into the river. And we used to, we use the river water, to drink. And, of course, the old industry that was here way before us, pollute all the waste from the industry, the textile industry, into the river. It have a lot of environmental effects. Lowell, the Merrimack River, the, also known as, Lowell River, was so polluted where people are not able to use it for recreational. And there's people who are believe that where there's water, there's fish. So they go to fish, they catch the fish from the Merrimack. Some of the fish are contaminated with mercury, or lead. And then, of course, when they when they catch the fish, they bring the bring the product fish home and cook it for their for their family, and their pregnant spouse. And then tell each—to all, you know. So we helped clean up the city, the canal and all kinds of we drain the canal. And, you know, clean up about three, four ton of old tires and bicycle, and you name it. Everything they throw into the canal. �So we start, you know, clean up canal. And start cleaning up the Merrimack River so that way they can, people can use it, to go to the water in the summer there. And then later on, I come up with idea, you know—what if, back in Cambodia, before the war, we have this water celebration. They call the Bun Om Touk. It's done in in early November every year in Cambodia, before the war and all that kind of stuff. And the idea, hey, why not bring it over to Lowell. And then the youth was so excited. They want to know—they never know what it's like. The elder want to showcase, want to share with their grandkid. And then about, “Hey, there's a beautiful culture before the war and all that kind of way,” right? So it took me about a year and a half to pull that project together. So, we need to bring that to Lowell. And then by 1997, we have a first Water Festival here in Lowell. So it's been—well, it's older than you, since 1997, right? So become one of the largest ethnic festival here in the Merrimack, in our valley, every August, every third week in August. People from all walk of life, people—even Grandma, you know, flew from Chicago, people from Toronto, people from Canada, people from even Australia, France, even people from Cambodia as well. We might come here. They want to witness what the Water Festival here in Lowell is all about. So it really bring people together. Just really bring, you know, the Lowellian together and all kinds of as well. I remember a former Mayor Bud Caulfield, you know he was invited. Invited him to come and, “Hey Mayor just come and do a quick welcome people to our festival,” and all that kind of stuff. It was in the summer. It was a hot August, so he came in [shorts] and then, a sweatshirt or something that, then it was among all of us who are dressing in the traditional costume of everybody. He feels so embarrassed. Like this, number one, number two is, like, I remember he asked me, "Hey, Sam, where are these people coming from?" Well, from the city of Lowell. I say, "been trying to invite a community member to the meeting at the city hall and August, like maybe a few or so up.” “But how come you get 100,000, like thousands?" of— "Well, because we do something in the culture of their community.” And he was surprised. So we have to have the police cruiser to take him home and change his clothes and then coming back. So that was really cool. So that was really nice. That's Bud, Mayor Bud. And of course, every year we do the New Year Festival, we always have the flag raising ceremony at the city hall, where the former mayor, Richard—Dick Howe, the senior, right? And later on, other mayors, including John Cox, and Eileen Donoghue. 1 And Martin, Brian Martins and, you know, every New Year, we have them to do a welcoming, speak at the step of the City Hall regarding to the Khmer New Year. So I work with all those Lowellians, and to also work with all the city department, with all the university as well. Dr. Linda Silka was one of the most important figures at the time. Of course, the professor at UMass Lowell but also led the community with it, the Center for Family Work at the community and she, you know help a lot in terms of—with 1 John Cox was a former City Manager, not mayor. �the Water Festival, in terms of—help bridge that gap with the understanding between the community member and that of the University, of the higher educational institutions. And then, of course, you know Dr. Joy Gibson, and you know, you know Bob Forrant was to extend, you know their [unclear]. And, of course, you know Paul Mirriam. And, as well as, other key players, including the chancellor right now, or the president of the UMass Lowell now, Martin. You know, Marty Meehan and, yeah. Marty Meeham was a representative at a time. So we play a lot with him. We work a lot with him. Through his office, we got funding from the federal government to provide employment skill and training to the Cambodian Americans. So we work with the state agency, with the federal agency, the city agency, the HR institution, the business community. And of course, the Watershed Council, pretty much anyone and everyone. I mean, of course, the Latino American community, the church group, the religious group, the interfaith community, anything and everything that really help to foster a better relationship, and, of course, to have a community member [unclear]. AUDIO CUTS OUT. S: American, a friend of mine. AUDIO CUTS OUT. D: Okay, you should be good now, sorry. S: Become elected as a city councilor, Rithy Oum. So all the legwork that I have done behind the scene for a while, a few years, several years, to be able to really [unclear]. AUDIO CUTS OUT. D: We'll just have to do it like this for now. Yeah. Okay, yeah, this thing's just being stubborn. I haven't charged it in a while, so that's fine. What can you do? I should have been more prepared last night, but they keep shutting off. So, yeah, sorry to disturb you through all of that, but yeah, that's a lot of information S: Yeah, it's a long, lot of involvement, a very long story. D: Yeah, you actually touched upon the Water Festival, which I wanted to talk about as well, because I know that you were one of the co-founders for that, and it took, I was going to ask how long it took, how—what the process was, how it came to fruition. Because in the timeline, in my head, because, you know, I already know some, some information, just from either working with Professor Forrant, studying Lowell history, or because you've told me, or something of that sort. So I was trying to figure out the timeline in my head. It's like, okay, so when did you start working with the school to try and figure out the �whole pollution problem in the river? Because I remember Professor Forrant also telling me something about that, which was really interesting, because he mentioned working with you to help put up the sign like—first and foremost test both the river and the fish, for mercury or other poisons, and also putting up the signs and whatnot. So that was a—I don't know, I feel like every single time I talk about you with someone, or if I talk to you, I just learned something new, and I'm continuing to learn something new. So there's always, there's always a lot. But you've also mentioned in the past with the Water Festival, how that got the—it was an award for the city. It was like, a, was it the All American City award? S: Yeah, after we saw it, the first Water Festival of 1997, it pretty much inspired the Lowellians. And, “Wow, how does it live—" Even the mayor, Bud Caulfield at a time like, you know, "Sam, where did you get all these people? How did, how did you get them here, to the Merrimack River, to the Sampas Pavillion like this, thousands and thousands of them." Like, he was out, it's like he never see that many Asian American, or Southeast Asian American, coming to Lowell. It’s air from Lowell. They're from everywhere, right here, because this water, this significant cultural event is so meaningful to them. So when you invite them, they, I mean, they come automatically because it's their culture. And I remember grandparent trying to tell the story to their grandchildren, you know, "Hey, this is what you know I had involved back at home before the war. This is what my parent and grandparent even wore before the war, and all the kind of stuff right here." And, of course, for the younger grandchildren, "Wow. This is really amazing, tell me more about that boat." "Well, back at home, there are even longer boats.” It's like the one that we have in Lowell only, like, 27, 30 feet long. But the one back at, oh, it's double, double the size. So people took it really—it's all about unity. It's all about teamwork. It's all about belief. It's all about doing something great to honor the tradition, the culture back at home. The Water Festival represents significantly, particularly for those us who are from the agrarian society, where water plays significant role. Water is a source of a life to the to the agricultural life back in Cambodia or in Southeast Asia. Water provide food, water provide fish. Water provide economy. Water provide culture. So there's a lot. Water provide purity a lot of times as well, right? So, people do this Water Festival for three days, three nights, back at home, where it’s always scheduled to associate with the full moon. We have at night—we have the moon watching ceremony. We also have the flotilla, where people put—create a man-made float, floating thing to honor the god of water. But also ask for forgiveness from the god of water for dirtying the water during the farming seasons and all the kind of stuff we did. But they also pray to the god of water for bountiful harvesting season or farming season the following season. So this is the reason, have a significant role and belief in and—of culture, not just the just the physical racing competition and both race, but it have that spiritual, the cultural component, and that is something that only through involvement, through teaching, through sharing, and �sowing and then demonstrating, only then that you're able to appreciate the rich culture of Cambodia, not only just the—the recent Killing Field and genocide and the exodus of refugee coming out of the country, but the beautiful culture, beautiful [unclear] culture as well. That was something that I wanted to bring into the community. That was the idea, of course, you know, I was generous to call it Lowell Southeast Asian Water Festival, instead of Cambodian Water Festival. Because I want to share the culture—hey, there's something similar that we can do with Laotian, and they can do something that we can do with the Khmer Kampuchea Krom, we use part of culture. There's something that we can do with the Thai, because a lot of territory was lost to Thai, to Thailand, lost to Vietnam. So, but that part of Southeast Asia be all under the Khmer Empire, so their culture is still being practiced until today, for hundreds of thousands of years, just keeping bigger and bigger and bigger now, with all the bountiful resources. And there is a been, after the war and all that kind of stuff. So we want to bring that. We want to bring that. I want to bring that piece of culture to Lowell. If I can't bring 100,000 of people to Cambodia to witness that, I'm going to bring that culture to Lowell so that, hey, you know. So that's that. And of course, I believe in the in the culture. I feel that there is the power, the bonding, bonding us all together, regardless of what social, economic background we have. Their culture is a piece of us everywhere. And anyone you know can associate with it, whether it’s dance, music, poetry and sportsmanship and all kind of stuff, right there, right the language in thinking that it's part of the culture. So from the Water Festival to the New Year Festival in in the late 1990s, 90s and early 2000s, to getting the first Cambodian member elected as a city councilor, to the poetry book created in 2010, and to the Cambodian contemporary opera, the rock and roll opera called “Where Elephants Weep.” Where we do—I gave birth, I helped give birth to the opera. Here, it's based on the story of Cambodian returning home after 30 years of civil strife to find his own roots. And then, of course, it sort of based on the Asian love story, the tong tieu, just like the Romeo and Juliet. And then the beautiful thing about that is that we integrated the twelfth century pinpeat ensemble with a number of instruments, such as the xylophone, the kong, the you know, the hand drum, the big drum, the—all the wind instrument, includes sralai and khloy and chepai, the string instrument, with the American rock and roll band. Because when we came in the 80s, all we heard is about the rock and roll, so we combine it— it’s truly an East-Midwest musical rendition, and plus the New England sting orchestra with doctors— who's the—Dr. Robert. So it really brings it to light. And it's like it really, really, for the first time in history, that had Cambodian American ever heard about their 12th century pinpeat ensemble play with a rock and roll band. It's just incredible, you know, yeah. And we do not have the space to do that, so we end up performing in the inside, the Irish theater. I mean not the Lowell—I mean the Lowell High School. But it really bring the community together and talk about the arts and culture, and have the dialogue, the conversation across the general group, and across the ethnic group as well. So it was that kind of thing that really bring people to Lowell. �And also, we saw that, like 1999 Lowell was chosen as one of the All-America City, right? Based on the grassroot movement that we have, that we brought people together, the Lowellian and as well as the immigrant group. And then, of course, the newspaper the Lowell Sun, start writing articles positively about Lowell, about Cambodian immigrant, about refugee. They now felt that “Hey, these people are part of the cultural fabric, and that we have.” Before that is all, if anything, things written by the Lowell Sun is always, “Oh, these gangs, incident here, they're shooting this,” all negative stuff, right here, right? I have made, I have changed that part of them, I have changed that Lowell. And as a result, when Lowell become the All-American city, right here, it gives us the pride, the economic pride. They can name it for the next five years that Lowell is different. Lowell is vibrant, Lowell is rebuilding, Lowell is safe. Lowell is—I remember that Water Festival people from all over the world. I mean, pretty much coming from America. And if they book the hotel, they stay with their family. There’s lines of people, stay in line, going to eat at Cambodian restaurants. Like that economic development follow because of that tourism, because of that people coming to Lowell. You get people choose to come to Lowell in the third weekend of August, they want to be part of that. They want to taste the food, they wanted to hear, they want to see the performance. They want to be part of that festivity and all that kind of stuff. And it just bring people together. You know, it's— so that that's, that's how it is. That's how so we use that art and culture, the activity will change the image of Lowell, and as a result, Lowell has been viewed positively. There's articles and articles, there's Lowell Sun, there's Boston Globe, there's Lawrence Tribune and NPRs and Radio Free Asia, [unclear] Americans, and even media from Cambodia come and cover these stories. So it made Lowell known nationally, internationally because of the Water Festival. And that is the contribution that I have made to Lowell. And, of course, I get a bunch of recognition, the flag and all that kind of stuff. But the most important is not about it, it’s about—You know what, you know me, I was trained as an engineer. So what it is—what can I do to make the positive result of that? So whatever the issue that at hand, I want to make something better, that I want to create the program and services that that can make the change. If the Cambodian Americans do not speak English, then we're going to create the English program for them. If they don't have the job skill, we're going to add the job. We're going to add this. We're going to add the program that teach them the skill so that they can be employable. If the youth cannot pass the MCAST test, we're going to have the program to help them with the MCAST test. If the youth want to learn Khmer dance, and we put them into the Khmer dance. And even youth who have some sort of disability with the Monorom Public Support program, we dress them up. They become angels, they become celebrities and perform at the biggest stage at the Water Festival stage, or at the Tsongas arena stage, where they become like, really, super proud of themselves. So they proud themselves. They hope they know who they are, and when they know who they are, they feel comfortable. They feel they have a high self-esteem. They can be anything and everything, you know. They don't fear, they �don't feel intimidated. They don't feel like, oh, they're inferior. They don't feel like they're old because of this and all that. They feel super proud themselves. So that is the whole thing. And then the parent come and support them. They see their kid performing and all kind of stuff. It's really incredible, just like you when I put you through the Angkor Dance troupe when you were young as well. All the kid you know. So that pretty much all the whole thing, you know, that's it's a nonstop work. It's 24/7, 7 days a week. It's so important, you know, to really do all of that, to make a change. So within seven years, my involvement there in Lowell have, Lowell have completely changed for the betterment. D: So that was between, like 1995 and the early 2000s? S: 2, 2002. D: Wow. That is a lot to happen in that time. Yeah, a lot of— S: Yeah, I become like a social engineer, like really recreate the image of Lowell, and make Lowell become better. So I enlist pretty much anyone and everyone—the university, I make them work because they, they have a part of this. The college, the National Park, the city of Lowell itself. They cannot just say, do the usual thing. I mean, I even fought with them as well. Like in the past, they—I fought with them for the service, for the program. So we brought in millions of dollars from the federal government, from the state government, from the regional institution to support Lowell. We brought millions of dollars to Lowell. And in addition to all of the funding from the federal government to build 20 plus new schools, because before there's no schools. There's run down schools where there's not space for, to accommodate the large influx of refugees from the refugee camp. So they put us in—they put the kid in the basement, they put the kid in the hallway, and all that kind of stuff. And then, so that was really, really a transformative, sort of make a shift. And then, of course… I mean that that was, that was, that was really, an incredible experience, D: Yeah, a lot of, like, the desegregation of the desegregating the school thing that you just mentioned, of putting Southeast Asian kids in particular, like, into better classrooms and whatnot—into actual proper facilities, rather than the basements, the bathrooms, the boiler rooms. Like you said, I'm just speaking on it because, like, again, I've been working on it for the past year. I spoke with the original lawyer who worked on that lawsuit for the desegregation case. His name is Camilo Perez, oh. Camilo… no, Bustillo Perez, yes. It's been a little bit since I've talked to him, but yeah, he's a really, really nice guy, really passionate about what he does. And he was describing the case against the city and how long it took, how grueling that case was, because one of the guys, I'm pretty sure you know who he is… What's his name? Oh, my goodness, I forgot his name, but his name was on the side of Lowell High for a little bit. But now, since Lowell High is being redone, they took his name down. Oh my gosh, what is his name? �S: Samaras. Bill. Samaras. D: No. He was really bad. Oh… S: Kouloheras, yeah. D: Oh my goodness, yeah. So his name is now down, and a lot of people in Lowell, like, especially people in the in the community, were talking about it with the City Council. And they were, especially with Oum Ratha Yem, he mentioned this and how people in the community were talking with him about, like, how they wanted to take it down. Wanted to take it down. But, yeah, it was. It's just like a, it's an incredible thing because the transformation of the Lowell Public School System because of this case, the civil rights case, which is… I don't want to say it's like, the biggest one in Lowell, but it's definitely one of the most prominent for our community. In particular. It's like one of the, one of the things that you know, really helped us. It's an incredible thing that, you know, things were able to change. How the city finally managed to, like, maybe not win, but they finally got themselves together to be like, “okay, one way or another, we’re going to lose this case.” So they had to, like, step down and whatnot. But yeah, it's a… education is a really important thing. I don't know where I was going with that. I just, I think about a lot because, again, I was working with it. But— S: Yeah, it's a long process. It takes a lot of effort, you know, to get people working together, you know, let's say they mean, it's a lot of effort, but it's worth it. The time is worth it, the effort. And the good thing that the benefit, there's resources being brought into Lowell. And it's good for the city of Lowell. And regardless of who, they did. But the benefit is to the Lowell is, it's a [unclear]. It's really notable. But it's also nice to give the credit where the credit is due, to people who actually work days and night, to bring about positive change, to the city of Lowell and then—now Lowell become growing, and it become as we as all people move to Lowell. And then now the housing is now. Not really… You can't get any housing. You can— D: You're telling me… I’ve been trying to find an apartment. It's very difficult, just so I could take a little, a little off of mom's shoulders. But yeah, a lot of what you've been mentioning so far in terms of like the Lowell, the Southeast Asian Water Festival, the all the work that you did when you were the Executive Director of the CMAA, it has to do a lot with like culture preservation in order to like, you know, preserve the identity of Cambodians and unite people on that front. Can you describe a little bit more about how you managed to revive Cambodian culture in United States? Because, again, like with the genocide, they wiped out an entire generation of musicians and artisans and otherwise, and I know that you did a lot with bringing musicians to the United States, or artists to see the United States, to present their work and all that sort of stuff. So did you have a �certain mindset behind that in terms of culture? Preservation or any other notes that you wanted to include? S: Yeah, so surviving the killing fields of Cambodia at my younger age, where my boyhood was deprived. In fact, I didn't have any boyhood, because of at the tender age I was recruit and put into the youths mobile team, we’re force as a slave labor for almost four years. And then there's lack of food and love and, of course, no schooling and all that kind of stuff were there. So I use the personal experience as a way to motivate me. And certainly, I do not want to have the youth, the next generation, or the kid, my kids, and all the kind of stuff, to ever go through that kind of hardship again. So I use a lot of personal experience. So that's why, it was—that was the motivation. Of course, there was the thing that kept me going, because I feel that you know, here in America, of course, we have a challenge of being poor, the challenge being an outsider, and being not from the culture. It's really hard to make the fundamental change, to provide the proper food and shelter for family. But also the opportunity to honor, to worship and to practice, to celebrate our rich culture. The only thing that’s talked about, “Oh yeah, you're a bunch of people from the Killing Field. You kill each other,” all the negative thing that happening. But I know that Cambodia has been have other rich culture, and then also there's this that predate the Killing Fields. So my point is, I want to bring that piece of culture to Lowell. I want to bring that piece of culture to the new city here to make people feel proud about themselves, who they are and what they are. So that way, to know what the best in our culture, but also to take the best what America had to offer as well. So we can, we have that great opportunity to do that, and that was and to really create a new identity, as a Cambodian American, we are super proud of what we have here, and, of course, what we had back at home before the war. So it's all of that personal, provision that I didn't have. Growing up, didn't have a chance to go to school. I didn't have to go a chance to appreciate the culture, which is really short, it’s really short. I mean, I was in my early teen when the war broke down, when the Killing Field took place in Cambodia. And then there was another four years in the refugee camp, where there's no—where there's a little… deprivation of freedom to go to school. In fact, we were forbidden to study any foreign language back in the refugee camp. So it was a struggle just to learn English. I remember your grandfather bought me a book, [unclear] book one, and I remember I recite all the ABC overnight because I was so thirsty about learning, I was deprived of educational environment for so long under the Khmer Rouge, and then I completely like lost all of those. So it was in the refugee for four years was a time to really like, relearn all what I lost for the past four years, but also learn the new language as well, which is English. So by the time we got accepted by the U.S. Embassy, interview by U.S. Embassy. I always—I spoke English, be able to communicate and tell the story to the U.S. Embassy. I mean, I'm back. I mean—not ambassador, but the official, the immigrant official, that, “You know what? We fled the country because of the of the war and all that kind of stuff. We wanted to ask for political asylum here in a third country, in the U.S.” And then didn't ask me, might they just say, “Hey, Sam, is this your handwriting?” That is �all mine. And you know, we just asked him, what? You know, just a pretty much simple question. Then we got granted the political asylum, as you know, to come to the U.S. There was, it was history upon histories and all that and all that stuff, right there. And I also remember your grandmother asked me to teach your mom English in the camp. So that's how we met. That's how I fell in love. We fell in love, and then 11 years later after we got to the U.S, that's when I asked her parents, permission to marry her. And then the rest of the history. Now it’s been 32, 33 years. So it's a personal love relationship, but also the passion to want to do something. I know that I was given a second life, where millions of other Cambodians lost their life during the war, during the refugee, the Killing Field, but I was given this life. So when I got my college degree, I feel that—you know what, as an engineer, so you know what, and start working. I feel that that maybe that post traumatic stress disorder, you know what, something bugging me about “Hey, I can go on to work for the industry and make a lot of money for myself my family. But then when I look at the community, they are broken. They are poor. They are, you know, struggle. They are desperate.” Because not a lot of family have that good role model in their family. Lot of family are being led by single mother, because the husband, the father, was killed in the Khmer Rouge, or died beforehand. So I feel—if, and of course, I look at my generation, who went to school together, college together, and then they were, they left to wherever their job, become employed. And so there's a brain drain in our community. And they felt that if they're trying to continue, then who going to stay around and help the community? So I saw this as my calling. So, one day I need to do something. If I were to help make a difference in life and within the community, why not start from our own community? And prior to that, when my first camp to the U.S, our family was helped by a complete stranger. Back in one of the camp in transit center, I was working as a director of the makeshift clinic there, where I oversee other Southeast Asian refugees. In providing the services to other refugee in the camp with hundreds of thousands of family there. And all of a sudden, this white woman, Elizabeth, Dr. Lisa Burke was working on her research into health issue related to the refugee and immigrant coming to America, to the Chicago area. And she happened to volunteer to work with the ARC, which is American Refugee Committee, where they run the clinic inside the refugee camp, and I happened to be—they make me the youngest director there. And we met, and I told her about coming to the U.S, but did not have a sponsor, did not know anyone here, did not have the family there. And she was so touched by the story that I shared with her. So she wrote a letter to her friend in Evanston. Happened to be a member of the Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian church. You know, in Evanston, become the co-sponsor of my family, along with the refugee resettlement agency called the [unclear] Immigrants’ Aid in Chicago, become the cosponsor. That's how I got to the U.S. on November 5th, 1984. And we first experienced our first winter in the windy city, and then and all that, and all that, right? And a month and a half later on, I signed myself up in the community college to pursue my formal education again, in a completely different environment and a completely different culture. �[unclear] is like, but the four years of refugee prepare me with the English skills, and that's how I got—that's how I was able to survive the two and a half year, the two year college, and then another two years at the four year college, and get my associate degree, and then bachelor’s degree as an as an engineer, electrical engineer. And of course, when I came here to Lowell, I come here, my education here, my master’s degree at Northeastern University here. And because the rest of them are just like, it's just like the history. So they pretty much, yeah. So I spent the last 20 years at the education to promote the higher education for Cambodian American, Southeast Asian American to be able to—this, the college is for them. And, of course, to bring the community college as well as the higher education institution to be more… what is it called—understanding and more effective in helping and providing programming services to the community as a result of that. There's an increase in enrollment at the Middlesex Community College and also at UMass Lowell, where their access to the federal funding to create a program and services exclusively for the Southeast Asian community. That's why Middlesex received… I think a few million dollars to run the Southeast Asian or the Asian American program. Now, and the same thing with UMass Lowell, with Dr. Sue Kim and Phitsamay, getting the grant because of my work that I have sort of laid the groundwork for all of that, right there, right? But a lot of people do not know that. Just like a lot of people do not know, hey, who created the Water Festival? In fact, I pretty much single handedly to create it, but I was not selfish. I want to share the creativity. I want to bring the community, and I want to bring everyone in, to say that we work together. Because it does take a community to really build really build it together, and it's more long lasting. That's why the Southeast Asian Water Festival is still going on after it was established in 1997 until now and then, we have a lot of history behind it. It's just a lot of fun, lot of struggles, a lot of frustration and perseverance. But overall, we achieve the goal. We triumph despite all the obstacles that in the way, and we bring the community closer together, a better understanding of all the community, I mean, the—particularly the existing Lowellian and the large influx of Southeast Asians and refugee, namely the Cambodian to the city of Lowell. So it is a better place. And now I'm so happy that, as we saw, that groundwork that we have done, it paved a way for other people to get involved, like now we have three people member the City Council, including Paul Ratha Yem, you know, Vesna and Sokhary Chau, but other people who are also involved with the school committee, and, of course, another agency in the UN and in the city, as well as the higher educations and all the, all the major you know, employer here in town, including Lowell General Hospital hiring Cambodian American. The Lowell Police Department—we had a long fought—a long fight to have them hire Southeast Asians and Cambodians to be a Lowell Police Force. But they had the stipulation that, they had this law, this diversity law wherethe Cambodian was not included as a minority group, the minority right? Because the law was pre-arrival of the �Cambodian American population. The minority group, as defined back then was nonwhite, Hispanics, you know, and things like that, and African American, but the Southeast Asians were not included. So we have a long fight, but we have a good friend as well with the Lowell Police Department. But then we become good friends. You know what, it's the stupid law that you have and, but I'm still going to make it known. So we even brought the former Attorney General, Janet Reno to come to the city and bring in the resources. And we have a makeshift place at the former CMAA building on Jackson Street, and people like, “Wow, you brought in the Attorney General to come to Lowell, to your city, to your office at the CMAA? That’s unheard of.” Because of the work. So we involved with the police. Police, policing, the community policing, to increase the awareness and they understand the better, understanding between, between the law enforcement here and the City of Lowell. So, as a result of that community policing, it brought the crime down. It really, really, you know… I mean, from the law, from law enforcement to the to the educational, to the environment, to the art and the culture and all that—I have done it all. I had the opportunity to do it all. Yeah, it was great. It was a great seven year experience, and we was about to make into the big, big step, and to build the first ever cultural community center on Jackson Street, 90,000 square feet, into a one stop-community center, and spend a lot of financial resource to make that, to make all the preparation work and all that kind of stuff. But then when I left, I think they gave up on a plan, and as a result, they sold the building and used whatever the proceeds there to get the current building right now. So that was all my contribution as well. Without my work, without that money left over from selling the building, they wouldn't have what it was today. But I highly doubt with the people there really know what the history is if they didn't learn. But it's alright. If they know, they know. If they don't know, they don't know. It's okay. D: Not spoken about much these days. You know, old history, that sort of thing. Yeah, I feel like we're reaching the end of the... I don't know how much time. S: Yeah, I have a two o'clock you know. D: Okay, one final question. Looking towards the future, what do you hope to what do you hope for the community to do? Like, what do you hope to see in the community, that sort of thing? S: Well, we're going to be here to stay. We're going to… the way I put it, to our community, we're going to live up a bone here, we're going to create, just like any other immigrant group, here in Lowell, because Lowell is home, is home to the immigrant community. Started from the French Canadian to the Irish to the Portuguese, to the Greeks, and to the to other group, including the Southeast Asian. In the early 80s and 90s, we're here to stay. We're going to—we want to be part of that community. We want to be that, that �contribution city center to the city of Lowell. We're going to, we're going to grow our family here. So my biggest project right now is we establish a permanent footprint here, to establish a permanent facility here, also known as, you know, in the process of developing the first ever Vatt Khmer Lowell and Khmer American Cultural Center. So that way we can house all the incredible—I mean, you know, you know artifacts and experience. And we can have a place where we can call home, gather a place where we can celebrate our past and fight for futures. So that is something that is my bigger project, right now. And, of course, the other thing we're to help, all us to be—to achieve our financial—our dream, American dream, also known as, you know, and a form a path to financial freedom. We're not independent, where we can further contribute, you know, and establish and create it, generational wealth, for many generations to come. My two biggest projects right now, and I hope to get it done by 2030, so I have that mandate to make a thing happen. D: Well, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge and your answers and all that sort of thing. It's very, very informative, very helpful. It is now around 1:23pm in the evening—the afternoon. The interview is concluded. Thank you very much for your— S: You’re welcome. D: Your answers, yeah. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Samkhann Khoeun oral history transcript Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-12 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Samkhann Khoeun and Chandaranee Khoeun about his life in Lowell; discusses his time at the Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association (CMAA), early life in Lowell, reflections about the Cambodian community's growth over the past 30 years, and the maintenance of Cambodian heritage and culture in the United States. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Khoeun, Chandaranee Khoeun, Samkhann Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Community development Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Group identity Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/ae42e0bf5fff413149247155312d1116.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=DdXngjAp1EXlhW67Eg7HVGd3dQtEQkSN8jhBJo8eUveAOLolm112xYIguKP4E9pv-N5AyY1KgecqDLRIEU6GIWAIlxQLC92XZBbvCgxrWYP8fe-jojgdPDfG6ZD1%7EuZwUxkHpTK7xl7rEMJvfIeQaAUzBabYhGsJsjdmla%7Ea0rcsVpEtv-5G7Aigrz%7EA3iAKwZ660VuBst7UMAkm4v2z5sTBNr2va9hkr8QL6PyTMfTSYJL7MezfTIkdHFZbkexS2FjNxPCy8cuaK2GLZ8aQx55wsccY4TUvmPCi21mOANKlWI9QXGvT6yp3CnePxtzN9QNowoQ3TReiNZF8myot0g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 83357dccc35e9b303738220460bde66d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Keto Tan oral history recording, 2025 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Audio recording of interview between Keto Tan and June Em about his experiences as a refugee moving from Cambodia to America; discusses his childhood before the Khmer Rouge, his time in a Thai refugee camp, learning English and becoming an interpreter in the camp, moving to California, going to college, working in a law firm, and becoming a conference-level interpreter for the Secretary of Defence and Secretary of State. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Em, June Tan, Keto Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Translators Translating services Khmer language Law offices Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/3934d010adf5adac3f4618caebee2899.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=ouIBuib8xTDfnAfJG3ilWmoGCVUYj6ADVxGqN8vFK%7Ev9KgMtoxhQLMRzUv60OkFaqgZ3XLdevljq%7EndcQwUOQ4iNOetIHCd%7E9RHS1ws1YZamR63nQEsBWLJ3YPnvQCQhjYKkTPpIZV0xf459O-q4SWKrN%7E2SJUxDp%7E-CSu56bsdP2zabRWAlLutD49jT-oJBSgCeHBvIa9lbXGxW801yH%7E96G4ttGR-mm6b4zr0mkhy5qWgyH%7EmFdNVBJxpttGFg2o6Crea9HMEizOeKDeGqwNa8f6WNpw2vq-XNmV9d8SKZwWr3E7kX4bbQZwFsW5noSxi8lLXR8tC5VqkB6sCOAQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 8d4d0679a1dfab5aafdde63057620e89 PDF Text Text UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE PROLEUNG KHMER STUDENT ORAL HISTORIES, 2025 INFORMANT/NARRATOR: KETO TAN (K) INTERVIEWER: JUNE EM (J) DATE: X J: So I'm going to start with your background and journey. K: Okay, yeah. J: Can you please tell me a little bit about yourself and your background? K: Okay, my name is Keto Tan. I was born in Cambodia in the late 60s. We had lived through the Khmer Rouge regime and a few year under the Vietnamese occupation. After that in 1984, we fled the country, went to Thailand—not really Thailand, went to the camps along Thai-Cambodian border. And my family and I got stuck in the camps for almost 10 years. So eventually we were admitted to, we were allowed to come to America based on immigration visa because we had a sponsor at that time. And we arrived in the U.S. in 1993. So, in 1994, I moved to Lowell, Massachusetts, and went to school. Start with Middlesex Community College, then to UMass Amherst, then a few years in law school. Then in 2003, I was hired as a Khmer interpreter for the Massachusetts trial court. J: Perfect. And what was life like before you came to the United States? Like your early life growing up in Cambodia, or even before the refugee camp? K: Yeah, it was, well, for my age, I missed—they call kid time, or even young adult, or even high school life, because when I was five or six years old, the Khmer Rouge took over the country and the Khmer Rouge evacuated—I was from the city. So we were evacuated out of the city. They promised that they would allow us to return after three days, but then it didn't happen. So we ended up living under the Khmer Rouge time almost four years. And I lost my father probably in early 1978. I was about eight or seven years old at that time. So, and we live under the new government at that time was, it was installed by the Vietnamese government, because they came to Cambodia in 1979, in the name of liberation, helping us from Khmer Rouge. But in fact, a long history between Cambodia and Vietnam. They probably had some other intent. But anyway, I live under the Cambodian government that was set up by the Vietnamese for a few years, and then because I lost my father, he was the breadwinner in the family, my mom could not support us. There were five of us. I had four siblings at that time. And later on, my mother remarried and had two other sons. So there were nine of us. She could not raise us. Around the same time, we learned that her brother, who was a pilot during the Vietnam War, was living in America. So after the Khmer Rouge took over, he flew to— he was a bomber. He flew a fighting plane. So he went to Thailand and was admitted to �America. Later on, he learned that we were still alive. He told my mother to find a way to go to the border. So we went in 1984, we went there. He started the paperwork, but we could not get out of the camp until 1993. The answer to the question is that I did not really have a normal life like other kids. So after the war, losing father, and then life in the camp for almost 10 years, and then came here, I was in mid-20s and start working until now, so. J: Would you mind telling me where you grew up in Cambodia? K: I was born in Phnom Penh. That before the Khmer Rouge took over. So during the Khmer Rouge, we were evacuated, or we were sent to… well, my parents at that time picked my father hometown, which was about 20 or 30 miles north of Phnom Penh. We lived there briefly, and it turned out that the local people recognized my father, who were from Phnom Penh at that time, and they were not so happy. So we end up escaping or fleeing to another village, and we lived in that village until the Vietnamese took over the country. What was the last question again? Story about life? J: Yeah, so basically, I just want to know your early life growing up in Cambodia, like before the Khmer Rouge. K: Oh, before the Khmer Rouge, yeah, we, okay, yeah. J: Like, how your childhood was? Where did you go to school and stuff? K: Yeah, well, before the Khmer Rouge took over, I stayed home. Basically, at that time, there were war between the government. Well, a little bit back, back a little bit. In late 1960, the country was ruled by King Sihanouk at that time, and in 1970, he was overthrown. The American government installed a general at that time to control Cambodia, and the Cambodian army at that time was working for American government, including the—Cambodian army, including my uncle, who was a pilot, were working for American government. They were helping American to get rid of the South Vietnam, the Viet Cong, who were using Cambodian, who was inside the Cambodian soil at that time. So unfortunately, because of the Vietnam War, the war actually spread into Cambodia, and my childhood was not normal because since I was young, I could hear the shelling, the bombing, and artilleries since I was young. And then when I went to school in 1975, it was supposed to be first grade, but then a few months later, the country fell. The Khmer Rouge took control over it, missing the childhood, and then the young child life, I miss that too, because there were no school during the Khmer Rouge time. Some people try to—well, the Khmer Rouge government try to allow to have some class, but the thing is that we did not have school. So basically, some volunteer try to teach us our language under trees, and between working hours. So, and we were starving at that time. We worked really hard. Our parents, we knew that our parents worked really hard, but we did not have any food to eat. We live as a commune, like people live together, and we go to the, what is called, like a dining hall. Only once per day in the evening, it was dinner, that we did not have enough food. We were given ratio as porridge, liquid rice. And I was— okay, under the Khmer Rouge they put people in different category. I was in a children's �center. My older sibling were in youth center, where they had to get up early every morning, go to work, and my parent was in the, they call middle age. Middle-age people center, and then the other group were elder. So every, each group have different responsibility. For me, we stay at a center where they provide lunch, but not really lunch, really poor ratio of food, and we had to stay overnight with them. I knew that my older sibling returned home, so did my parents. Went home till they slept at home, but they had to get up at four or five in the morning, get ready to work again. So they work 10 to 12 hours per day. In the village that we were living, there are plenty of produce, banana, mango, and other melons, but people could not touch it because that would violate the Khmer Rouge law at that time. If you pick a fruit and you got caught, you get tortured. We saw fruit, we saw a lot of produce around the village, but no one dare to touch it because we could be punished for picking it. AUDIO CUTS K: So just go back a little bit to the Khmer Rouge time. Okay, I was about seven or eight years, six or seven years old when the Khmer Rouge took over. We lived under the regime for almost four year. I lost my father during that time, and then in Cambodian society, after the Khmer Rouge was gone, we were struggling because my mom had to raise all five of us by herself. She used to be a homemaker, a housewife, no experience. She had some education, secondary education, but she never worked before. And when we were struggling, we learned that our uncle, who was a pilot still alive, and he learned about us as well. He told us to flee to Thailand, to the border. So that's what we did. We fled to Thailand in 1984. So when we arrived there, he start the paperwork to sponsor us, a petition to sponsor us out of the camp. But unfortunately, when we arrived in the camps, there were two types of camps. The camps that we were in were part of the resistance group fighting against government. And this group, they did not want people to leave. They want people there, so that the UN can continue provide food. Basically, we were placed there. We were forced to stay there as a hostage. The other camp was deeper in Thailand called refugee camp. Once you have a chance to get into refugee camp, then you will be processed and give food. Everybody receive food, receive ration in refugee camp. But in the resistance group, the UN did not provide food to boy or man. So imagine that in my family, there are nine people and there are only two female. My mom and my sister. So that were another conundrum over there because there are only two people ratio, and all of us nine had to live on that. We could not leave because from the resistance group was named by the UN as the displaced person camp. In order—of people who were living in this camp could not have direct access with the outside world. So because when the UN worker went into this camp, they went through the leader of the resistance group. We did not get food. And in order to go to refugee camp deeper inside Thailand, there was a lot of risk. So basically it's only about 15 miles apart, but you have to go through Thai soil, and Thai security for tight. They have every hundred meters a checkpoint. So you have to go there. If you lucky, they arrest you, they caught you, they send you back. But a lot of people were very unfortunate. And when they were trying to go to the refugee camp, the Thai soldier just shot them and killed. So sometime in the morning, they allow people from the camp to �collect the body. So when at that time I was only 14 and 15, but someday we went to the temple and saw bodies, 10 or 15 per night. They didn't ask any question, they just shoot. So it depend on the mood or depend on the individual guards. Some of them they arrest and they send back to the camp. They gave us to the UN and the UN took us back to the camp, to displaced person camp along the border. But some guard, they did not ask, they just shoot and kill everybody. And there was a lot of abuse as well, rapes and sexual abuse if they got caught by some Thai soldier. And beside the Thai soldier, there were also bandits. They were living between this displaced person camp and refugee camp and ambush people who tried to go to refugee camp. Victims, people who tried to go to the refugee camp could face the same fate as they met the Thai soldier. So anyway, we arrived in the camp. We got stuck there for almost 10 years. The reason was that we were able to communicate with my uncle in 1984, ‘85, he start the paperwork. In 1998, it turned out he did not have a citizen yet. So that's why we got stuck in displaced person camp until later on, until I believe it 1991. And at that time, we were interviewed by the embassy staff from U.S. embassy. In 1991, the UN started to allow people who live, who were in displaced person camp, to be interviewed because the refugee camp at that time, the number of refugee was not many, because they were able to leave the camp. So the number was not much. At that time, the UN allowed different embassies go to the displaced person directly. We were interviewed and wait again after the interview. I spoke some English at that time. When it was my turn to interview, I tried to answer in English. It turned out by the end of the day, the person—well, I started to respond in English. And after the interviewer knew that I spoke some English, he asked his interpreter at that time to go to another table and let me handle the interview for my family. After they finished, after she finished, my family, she asked me to continue on to do other cases as well. So at the end of the day, all the staff there came to me and asked whether I could return to provide service. It turned out the interpreter at that time was due to leave the camp already, but because there were no interpreter available, they had to ask him to stay. When I agreed to stay, the interpreter was able to leave the camp, and the embassy started to use my service. That was in 1991. So we had the interview. My uncle was living in San Jose, California, at that time. So technically he was ready to take us out to buy plane tickets to leave the camp, but there were nine of us, and his business was not doing good at that time. And he did not have enough money to buy the plane tickets for all of us. So we got stuck another couple of years there, even after they closed the displaced person camp, people in the camp need to be repatriated back to Cambodia. And at that time, afterward they set up UN-sponsored election in. I was deeper in refugee camp in Thailand. We were not able to leave the camp until 1993, when my uncle saved enough money to buy one way plane ticket for us. We arrived in San Francisco in June 25th, 1993. So our uncle brought us to Stockton. I had a cousin living there, so brought us to our cousin, and we lived there for almost a year. It was difficult to find job there. I could not go to high school because I was in early 20, almost mid-20 at that time. I was able to find a part-time job and went to adult school, but at the same time I could not find a full-time job. Until 1994, I learned that Lowell, Massachusetts, had a lot of jobs. So I decided to move to Lowell, Massachusetts in 1994. The spring of 1994. When I arrived in Massachusetts, I had a job the next day. The job at �that time was in a factory, a plastic factory. People carpooling to work every day. I worked for the whole summer, and by the end of summer, instead of—before the end of summer, instead of continue to work, I went to Middlesex Community College because I want to continue education. So I was in school, took out some loan, finished MCC within a few years, transferred to Amherst. Then… AUDIO CUTS J: Just to recap a little bit. So the reason that led you and your family to immigrate to the U.S. was because you were put at the displaced people camp, and then it was a help from your uncle. And then what brought you to Lowell was mainly the job opportunities. K: Yeah, job. Because we arrived in California for a year. I know English the most in my family, but there's still struggling. Anyway, I could not find a job. So then I moved to Lowell, Massachusetts in the spring of… at the end of the spring of 1994. After I got a job, then the rest of my family moved here as well. Because the same reason, they could not find a job there. So we all moved to Lowell by summer of 1994. In the spring, or fall of 1994, I start college, start MCC, Middlesex Community College. I was doing good. I was on dean list almost every semester. And my advisor at that time asked me what was next. And I told my advisor that I want to get a job because, yeah, no money still, being a student. And my advisor said that you have a lot of potential, you should not, you should continue. So that's why I went to transfer to UMass Amherst. And I did well as well over there. The same thing at the end of my time there, I went there for two years. My advisor also suggested that, if I want to ever continue to professional school, get a higher degree, then I should continue because they, she could see potential in me. And I decided to enroll in a law school in 1999. J: So we'll go back a little bit. What were your first impression of Lowell? Like, when you first got here. K: A lot of job at that time. And a lot of Cambodian people. J: A lot of Cambodian? K: Although—yeah, yeah, especially the first day, especially a lot of Cambodian working at the factories I mentioned. They were not in Lowell. The factories were not in Lowell. They were out in Leominster, Fitchburg, Lunenburg area, about 40 minutes or 35 minutes away. But a lot, most of the people live in Lowell had cheaper housing at that time. Lowell was, well, were not, there were plenty of apartment available. Actually, the Native American, not Native, what's it called… The American was ready to abandon the city. But the immigrant came in and they fix up the places. They bought houses, apartments, and rented out. When the new people come in, they continue to live in Lowell, and there were grocery stores, Cambodian grocery stores, Cambodian restaurants, open up, and there's a lot of things that we like about Lowell. We did not move anywhere. �J: When you stepped foot out of the airplane, I mean, you stepped foot in Lowell, what was your first impression like? Do you remember? K: I remember that when in Stockton, California, it was warm. So I believe at that time I took a 9 or 10 o' clock flight from San Francisco to Boston. So when I arrived in Boston, it was spring, I believe in April of 1994. It's still cold. I did not have a jacket. I had to go outside and wait for my friend to pick me up, and it was cold. When I arrived in Lowell, there were piles of snow still there. It was not completely melted yet. That's the first time I saw snow in Lowell. Then I was able to meet some people already on the way to the apartment. My friend knew some friends, just stopped by to say hello, and I could see there were a lot of Khmer in the city. J: So what are the biggest cultural adjustments you had to make? Not just coming to Lowell, but— K: Yeah, overall from there to America. That… Fortunately, before coming to America, when I was in the refugee camp, read about life in America, I read a little bit in English. Read about it, and to me, it was not really a culture shock besides the temperature. Well, first of all, we landed in San Francisco. The airport was so big, so we almost got lost there. But on the day that we flew out of Thailand, I was asked by the embassy staff to take care about 40 people who come with us. Our flight land in Japan, and about 10 people had to go to a different state, so about 30 people still with me. So we came together in San Francisco, and they all following me like a duckling family. I was the first one, go to ask the go to ask security where to go, and eventually we find our way out, exit the airport where other people had relative waiting for, and we had our uncle waiting for us at the airport. First time we saw, we saw there were high-rises, multi-lane highway, yeah, the overpass. That's a lot, between our trip from San Francisco to Stockton, my uncle stopped, our uncle stopped at KFC, so he ordered some chicken for us, some burger for us, but we couldn't eat burger. We had chicken, but we had to wonder there was no rice! So first of all, we only saw chicken, and we were waiting for the rice, and then we were told that this is how people eat food in this country, so there are no rice, you just had to eat chicken instead of rice. And that was the first time we enjoyed chicken, because in Cambodia or in the camp, if you had a chicken, our parents had to divide them, some for today, for evening, or some for tomorrow. So one chicken you could eat for a couple days, and either make soup or stir-fry, different dishes they could make, and all served with rice. So we had rice, and here, my first—yeah, first time, our first time shock, we got, wow, we eating chicken without rice! What we saw, we saw it in some movie, was there some accent to movie in the camp, the Chinese movie, most of the time, that they eat whole chicken by themselves, so we were impressed, but that day, it was the first time that we had to experience it, and eat chicken without rice. That was very, very delicious. J: So 31 years here. Are there any places in Lowell that hold special meaning for you? Because I have one. The river right here, that’s mine. So do you have yours? �K: Yeah, in 1994, we arrived in Lowell, working at the factory, and in the fall, I started MCC, I start to know people, the Cambodian Association, and the river bank, it reminded me, as in Cambodia, in front of the palace, the waterfront, so there's something similar there, except that they don't sell food here. You can go to walk and enjoy, yeah, the river bank, it's similar there. And a lot of Cambodian restaurant, that's why, that's why they have boat race in August, because it's too cold in November. J: So would you say the river bank was, is your favorite spot in Lowell? K: Yeah, for when we—favorite spot, river bank, and then the soccer field. I still play soccer at that time, that's why I met Kim’s father. J: Where is the place? K: They're called South Common, across the street from the train station, it's Thorndike Street, the old Superior Board. J: Bangkok? K: Yeah, on the other side of Bangkok, it's on Chelmsford Street, so if you cross that Chelmsford Street to the [punleu putijak] Temple drive to downtown… I think it's on route to downtown, it's on Thorndike Street, you know where the train station is? It's across the street from train station, maybe you should drive by there. So yeah, even though I had to work on weekend, or went to church—actually I was introduced to church when I was in the camp, so I pick up English and Thai at church, while going to church. J: So did you convert to Christian? K: Yeah, yeah, I was baptized in the camp, but then when I came to Lowell I still went to church, I also went to Catholic church. Around the time that I arrived in Lowell, there were news about the sexual abuse, pedophile, and my instinct at that time was that, okay, I was going to school and I miss a lot, when I was young, I miss the childhood time, being a kid, I did not have that time. So just on weekend, working, basically working, I worked at Market Basket for at least 10 years. Working on the weekend, going to school on weekday, on weekend, go to church in the morning and work in the afternoon, so when I had time, I go to play soccer. The soccer is where I met a lot of people, there are two, and we volunteer together, there are other people from different team had a boat race team as well, so they enter, so we compete with them on soccer field, and we compete with them in the water, boat race. So, yeah, soccer, South Common, and then the river bank, so those are the two places that I had fond memory. J: So, what changes have you seen in the Cambodian community here over the years? K: Well, the first wave of Cambodian immigrants arrived here in the early 80s. When the Vietnamese occupied or invaded Cambodia in early 80s, those people, the immigrants, �they just evacuated, they just keep running. They did not know that, most of them did not know that the Vietnamese invade, because they were with the Khmer Rouge. They were not necessarily Khmer Rouge supporter, but it's on the side, when the Khmer Rouge move, they move too. They come along with the Khmer Rouge. So, most of them, some of them arrived in the early 80s to the camp, and the UN found out about them close to— yeah, early 80 and mid 80, and started to admit them to America, and most refugees who came, even during my time, who arrived here, did not get much education. So, those people, most of them were living along, close to Thailand, in the countryside, like remote, rural area. They did not have a chance to go to school. So, when I arrived, I noticed that the majority of people, of Cambodian immigrants, were uneducated. When we arrived. So, in the mid-80, there were crisis in Lowell because the influx of immigrant come to Lowell, the city could not afford to have enough classroom for immigrant kids. The state and the federal had to get involved to provide classroom. People start to arrive in the mid-80, they found out about job, access. I did not arrive until the early 90. So, 10 years after they arrive. When I arrived, there were two or three Cambodian restaurants in the city already, and at least three grocery stores at that time, even though they did not have a lot of Asian, oriental item to sell in the store. They were small, the store was small. And when the immigrant arrived, people who used to live in Lowell started to leave town, except those who were connected to city political leader, they stay around. But people who are in the neighborhood, they start to move out. They move to Westford, they move to Chelmsford. Some of them even cross the border to New Hampshire. So, when I first arrived, the city start to change already. People who had money bought houses, apartment, renovated and rented out for Cambodian. We start to get involved, and in 2000, or I think in 1999, the first Cambodian American was elected as, one person, Rithy Uong, was elected as city councilor in 1999. The first ever elected Cambodian in the United States. So, he pretty much brought Lowell to the spotlight nationally, even internationally. So, he was the first Cambodian American ever to get elected in the United States, especially in Massachusetts. And in 2000, the city, after all the changes, positive change after the influx of immigrants, the city was elected or selected as All American City nationally.1 So, Lowell became an All American City in 2000. And then, if you, right now, 20 something year now, but it was important at that time. It brought Lowell to the spotlight. People came to Lowell, heard about Lowell, the newspaper, the media descended to Lowell because of the first Cambodian American was elected, and then all the immigrants helped the city to build economy, open store, build up the apartment, renovate apartment, make the city a livable place. So, Lowell was elected as all American city in 2000. J: So, would you say the changes you have seen are more positive than negative? K: Yeah, most of it were positive, especially for us, but for people who were native born here. Well, in the early 80s, there was a movie made in Lowell, and it was called Crap Town. It's about drugs. So, some people around the country or even around the world, if they saw that movie, they watched that movie, they were afraid to come to Lowell. But around the same time, a lot of people were leaving town, but the immigrant arriving. So, 1 Lowell was designated an All American City in 1999. �instead of deserted the town and have bought up the house, the immigrant come in, buying those buildings and convert it into apartment and livable place. That is a positive thing. And afterward, more people were coming. So, until mid-2000s, 2007, 2008, there were more immigrant arriving because there were a coup d'etat in Cambodia. Well, the accident at that time, before the coup d'etat in Cambodia, 2000, early 2000, 2004, 2005, there were people granted visa to come to visit the United States from Cambodia. In 2007, there were a coup d'etat in Cambodia. People who arrived before the coup d'etat applied for asylum, and they did not return because there were political persecution back home there. And afterward, there are new immigrant arriving as well. So, right now, the older immigrant, probably the old and new are equally number at this point. Actually, newcomer are even more, because newcomer like you, you came, you had education in Cambodia, and people had education, they get involved, but except some of them, they want to connect it to the ruling party back home, which is not good because immigrant hated companies(?) there, and newcomer are building the city and want to grant access to the ruling party back in Cambodia. So, basically, politically, we are still not in agreement in terms of whether to support the ruling party or continue to oppose it. We know that the ruling party do not give much room for democracy in Cambodia, but for newcomer, they are okay because most of them are great, they support them back there. Maybe they own property back in Cambodia too, but the older generation of immigrant like me, I did not have any property back there, and I stand for democracy. I think what they're doing in Cambodia is not democracy. Having father and son running the government and running the parliament is not democracy there, anyways. J: So, I'm just going to ask you a little bit about your education. So, you talk about doing well in school, having advisor and the deans kind of encouraging you to pursue for the education, what made you decide to pursue law? K: Since I was young, I want to be a lawyer. So, in the family, the argument I had between my sibling, I was good at arguing. My uncle, my aunt, say that you should go to law school. So, when I was in high school, I read book in the camp. Even though—well, yeah, for secondary education, I had the education in school. It's not solid, but just something that prevent me from missing. It's better than nothing. The foundation is not solid there because of the teacher, because of the resource we did not have enough, but I was able to graduate from makeshift high school in the camp. After high school, the camp leaders at that time with the sponsor from the UN opened kind of a community college level in the camp. So, we went to a—they call, Khmer call it law school, but it's kind of legal education there, and economic school there. So there are a couple type of school in the camp. I went to a school they call Institute of Public Administration. So, it is probably equivalent to community college in this country. So, I had a background there from there, and in my family, my uncle finished high school. Even my father finished high school, so my aunt and uncle were educated people. In Cambodia, you finish high school, it big. So, it call [bakduk]. That's right, yeah. If you probably, your parent generation, we were talking about, well, mostly men were able to finish high school. In the old day, maybe in late 60s or early 70s, when a male, when a son, a male student finish high school, what they said at that time was that family who had daughter would come to school or to the graduation and invite the male to marry with their daughter. �That's the old time. But anyway, my uncle, my aunt went to school. Some of them even went to college, because before the Khmer Rouge, there were college in Cambodia too, the university. So, we came from a family who loved education. And for me, I could see that in the camp, while other people just giving up or enjoy their teenage life, I walked for mile to go to school, from one side of the camp to another side of the camp. I learned English, I learned math, I learned Thai. So, at one time when I was in the camp, I was in a soccer team. So, we had to go to play soccer against a Vietnamese camp. I was the only one who spoke Thai. So, the Thai soldier make all the people queue up, stay in line, and I was standing aside and they had all those people push up and I was just standing there interpreting for the whole team. Well, they were jealous, but I was very impressed when I was in the camp, when I saw Americans spoke Khmer, and Cambodian UN worker who were from Cambodia, spoke English, spoke Thai, spoke Khmer. So, it fascinated me. I was really fascinated about language. So, I learned nonstop. I read a lot of books. If I met someone in the camp and saw them reading newspaper, no matter what English or Thai, I make friend with them and ask them to give it to me. Ask them the newspaper. Well, usually when after they read, if anything interesting, they just tear that part and keep it and throw the rest. I made a deal with them that, okay, if you finish reading it, give it to me. So they gave the paper to me. I read newspaper, Thai newspaper, English newspaper and it motivate me. I was doing good in school. I was good at math and at language, at English, until I had the interview where the interviewer asked me to do, to interpret for my family and for the, basically for the embassy. I knew that, but even at that time, I did not want to be an interpreter. My goal was to become a lawyer. When I first arrived in the U.S, went to MCC, went to Amherst, I just said, okay, four year, four year of university, that's good enough for me. I should go out and find a job. But my advisor said that you had potential, you could go. Then she said that if I wanted to go, wrote me a recommendation. So, I decided to go law school, to law school, When I was in law school I needed a part-time job. So, I asked around and people introduced me to the trial board to do a translation. We still called at that time, translator. So, they needed interpreter at that time and they hired me to do freelance interpreter. After a few years, I was at the end of law school and they were looking for a full-time staff. And I was thinking, okay, I still want to be a lawyer, but interpreter in this country wasn't bad. Interpreters are professional. So, basically, it is a respectable profession. Back in Cambodia, interpreter, singer, or they call celebrity, people, the public did not give much value. Because maybe before you were born. But when I was young, we just thought that singer and actor were sleeping around. They were promiscuous, they had low morale. And I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be a celebrity. And for interpreter, in the old day, the government only use their relative, because they don't want the information spread out. So, they use their own relative. If they don't have relative, they would use diplomat, people who work for the government, for the embassy. Those are the people. And interpreter did not have a good reputation. So, in Khmer, we call it [Tai Bo]. [Tai Bo], it could mean both, bad and good. It's kind of sarcastic way to call someone as a [Tai Bo]. That mean, you know, it kind of converted to the way their principal want, or later on to the way that the interpreter himself want. So, the interpreter could take advantage from other people. At one point, the U.S. embassy had to close the embassy in Cambodia, �and people had to go to Bangkok to get interview, because it was so corrupted that interpreter and other embassy staff was so bad, was so corrupt. Anyway, I did not want to be interpreter, but when the position was posed, my boss at that time approached me, asked whether I want to be a full-time interpreter and I was thinking, ah. I was almost finished law school and I still want to be law school. But at the same time, when I was working as they call per diem or freelance. Freelance and per diem is the same, but per diem get paid by the work you've done. When I was a per diem interpreter, I learned that those who finished law school and if they want to go work for the state, they call assistant district attorney, the prosecutor. They got paid… about 20, 25 years ago, their salary around 37 to 39 thousand per year. The interpreter position got paid mid-50. So I'm about 15 grand more than lawyer and I was thinking, if I finish law school, if I want to go to become a lawyer, I got paid only say the most 40 at that time with two or three languages. And then I become interpreter, I could get 15 grand more than lawyer. So that was a good kind of something that incited me to, enticing me to do it. And that one thing, and the second thing is that when I work as per diem interpreter, I made friends with lawyers, and those lawyers had to go to their office on weekend. I mean, Saturday and Sunday, workday they work in the court. They represent people, they work hard and on weekend they had to catch up. So basically they work seven days per week. And I was thinking it's not good trade, a good trade. Yeah, I was thinking that I miss a lot being a child, being kids, the time that passed I did not have. And I want something, I don't want to become lawyer and then had to work the whole weekend for it. So I would miss the whole life. I think that if I get a full time job, then I only work five days per week. And then I have two day. And two day at that time, I stopped going to church already. I still play soccer, but I pick up a new hobby, fishing. I like fishing. So yeah, because the ADA and ADA got paid less, that prosecutor and then lawyer had to work on weekend. Those are the thing. And I was good. Actually when I start to serve at Per Diem Interpreter, I could see the people who needed my service smile or look happy when they hear my interpretation. Unlike trying to figure out what the interpreter say, they love it. And my point was that—the LAPD called limited English proficiency, proficient individual like my service and the state, the trial court needed me. So, and then the two issue that I just told you, working on weekend, I be an attorney, and then get paid less, finish law school. I decided to apply for the job and I did a lot. When I will hire, my boss told me that I was supposed to cover, in this country, they go by county. So I was supposed to cover two county, Middlesex, that had the most population in Massachusetts, and Essex County, pretty much from Lowell to the eastern part of Lynn, Salem, Boston area. Those are the area I was supposed to work. They were supposed to hire another one to cover Central Mass and Western Massachusetts. The funding for interpreter position was tough. They could not hire another interpreter. I end up working alone and they end up sending me across or all over the state. So those are the little history why I did not pursue to become a lawyer. J: My question was, you basically answer it. So what inspired you to pursue a career in law and become a court interpreter? So basically, it was a job posting opportunity. Basically, you're smart, you choose life and you took a chance, you got paid more. Yeah. Be a lawyer, no life. �K: And helping people. Become a lawyer is about helping people too. Even you are in private practice, it's still helping those who did not know legal system. So for me, yeah, it's about choosing, also providing service to the LEP. Basically, by the time I became staff or by the time that I applied for per diem interpreter in 2000, I had been doing interpreting for 20 years already. Because I started in 1990, 1991, 2000, in 20 years there. So I had some experience there. But I never want to be interpreter until at the end of law school. Yeah, I think about that and try to balance things out. Interpreter got paid more, I could help a lot of people. I could be useful for my community. Useful for the LEP and for the trial court. Basically, public service, public service. J: So. related question is, what has your role been like in Massachusetts trial court? K: Basically, it's interpreter and translator. If the trial court has any paperwork form that need to be translated, they ask me for Khmer, to translate it into Khmer, from English to Khmer. There are a lot of form, a lot of forms in the trial court and some of them need to be translated. Like the most used form is the restraining order or eviction or other form. Just a plea agreement also needed to be translated. So any translation that need to be translated to language, other language, Khmer is my responsibility. Beside that, interpreting—well, I should give the definition of translation and interpreting. Translation is translate from, on from one language to another. Interpreter, interpreting is translating, translation from one language by mouth, orally from one language to another. But the majority of my responsibility is interpreting. So probably 90% they send me to different part of the state. J: How do you feel to be able to represent the Khmer language in that setting? K: Yeah, I feel very, very proud, happy that I could help them, first of all, and I work competitive. And we have other interpreter as well, but they did not have a degree, college degree. They got there, they have a job because they came here a long time ago and they could communicate, could converse between Khmer and English. But for me, I finished college here in this country and I went to law school. So the confidence I had, a lot, because after third year, after three year of law school, you feel like you are also an attorney. So, yeah, I did my job well. People like my performance, both the court and the LEP. And usually there are no trouble. J: Could you share a little bit about what it has been to travel to different countries and to serve as an interpreter for a high-ranking official? K: Okay, yeah. So since I became the trial court interpreter, I had friends from other states or from Boston and Washington DC, told me about the need of Khmer interpreter at the State Department. But since I became a staff interpreter in 2003, I did not pay attention to the need there because I had a lot of work already in the state of Massachusetts. Until in 2016, when President Obama was hosting, they called a special summit the ASEAN leader in California. They need another interpreter, two interpreter, three interpreter per language. So they were frantically looking for a Khmer interpreter. They could not find �anyone. And it happened that one of the interpreter knew me. We used to work together for one assignment. And he gave my information to the State Department's language survey, Office of Language Survey. Within the State Department, there is a different office and one of them is Office of Language Survey. So he gave my information to the Office of Language Survey. The director of that office contacted me just a few weeks before the event take place. So they asked me to go to California to support President Obama because he was hosting ASEAN leader. Initially, because it was in February, the event start on the 15th, 16th, and 17th of February. They contact me late in January and it was cold in Massachusetts. At my house, during that time, we had a heater that I had to go to the basement and refill the water. So. J: Right now? K: We changed it in 2019 to auto refill now. And my wife and son were still in Cambodia during that time. And when they called me after talking, after I told them, no, I don't want to go. So the person tried to convince me and I said, I don't want to go because I had to, it's cold in Massachusetts. I was home alone and I had to refill. Anyway, about 15 minutes after we talked, she called again. And this time, she said that you don't have to do anything. She told me that I did not have to do anything. They told me how much I would get paid per day and they will book hotel, buy plane ticket, and everything all covered. So I just go and get paid, do the job and get paid. So yeah, after they said that I don't have to deal with plane ticket and hotel and everything, I said yes. Well, I was thinking a little bit too after I hung up from the previous call. So when she came again, she tried to convince me and say that, okay, everything will be covered. I decided to on the 14th, I think, I took a flight out of Boston and went to California. I think they're called Palm Springs. When I arrived there, I could see from the airplane that Air Force One was already landed. So the president was there already. And we, when we prepped, we rehearsed, walked through, and then on the day that we supposed to get into the booth, the director and other people who work with the language services came to my booth and tried to monitor my performance. Because I was new, I was new to them. They never used my service before. After a couple hours or so, my neighboring, my colleague from other language and the way they observing me, they thought that I was good. After that event, they contact me the following week and asked me to go to Washington, DC to fill out paperwork to get on their list officially. So the first time that they hired me, it was not official. It's just to cover, to cover because the need of the event. So then, yeah, after the they asked me to go to Washington, DC so that they could—well, they told me that, just for symbolic to go to D.C. fill out the paperwork, get some paperwork done, and then they pay for the hotel as well. Hotel and food and everything. Basically, a workshop. They asked me to attend workshops so that they can properly put my name with the language service. If they didn't do that, it was… not illegal, but it's not fair because the State Department had to recruit people and had everyone went through the process, and I should. Otherwise, other people would be jealous. They did not doubt about my ability. They just want to get people. I went to do the paperwork, to do the workshop, and yeah, I learned a lot from there. There's some training there, and then since then, I have been asked to do some work for the State Department, but basically, after the workshop, they gave a test, and I did the test, and they classified me as conference interpreter, the �highest-level interpreter. And I told them that I would not have time to do any other job. At the State Department, there are three levels. They have liaison interpreting, they have seminar interpreting, and conference. Conference is the top one, so they just want me so badly, and they said that, okay, they only reserve me for the conference, and the conference is the secretary level and you get paid more for conference. So since then, every year, if they need, if they had to communicate with Cambodian leader, they would contact me, do it on the phone, or go in person, and for the U.S. government, we've done thing with the ASEAN country. ASEAN has 10 countries, and Khmer is one of them, so when our Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense want to meet Cambodian leader, the U.S. need to have our own interpreter, so that when they send me. They send me, so basically since 2016, except the COVID time, for a couple year, for a few year that we did not have any assignment. So I go there, I go to Singapore, I go to Indonesia, I go to Laos, depend on—in ASEAN country, take turn to be president. So this year, last year, it was Laos, that where the meeting took place. So I went to Laos, the year before that, it was in Indonesia, and the year before that, it was 2023, 2022, it was in Cambodia. So ’22 Cambodia, ‘23 Indonesia, ‘24 Laos, this year in Malaysia, Malaysia turn. So it is very likely if they keep every program running, it is likely that I will go to Malaysia. Well, the plan is that, there are Malaysia, oh, there are Singapore in May, Thailand in July, and Malaysia in November. I think I'm going to be sent, except our new administration, I don't know. We don't know that, if they want to keep all of the event, because America need to do all the diplomacy with all the ASEAN country, and when the Secretary of State, or Secretary of Defense doing that, they go in person, and they bring their own interpreter, and for Khmer, it's me and my other colleague to go. Anyway, yeah, I am very fortunate that I have been asked to support our Secretary every year. Mostly Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State, but sometimes, when the Justice Department needed to deal with the Cambodian government, and they also asked. I have not done anything for the Justice Department yet, but my colleague has, Justice Department, so. J: So, basically, you started to interpret for… K: President Obama, okay. J: It was like the first time? K: Yeah, the first time, but I was, I had, I gained experience, I had a lot of experience with the trial court already. J: So, like, first, you were in just Massachusetts… K: Yeah, the trial court. Initially, it's just the trial court, the trial court interpreter, Massachusetts trial court interpreter, and I did a lot of trial, I did a lot of motion, all type of issue. J: Would you say it's a big jump from just a Massachusetts trial court to, like, representing, like, President Obama? �K: Oh, yeah, to the President and to the Secretary level, internationally. J: Were you nervous? K: Well, in terms of performance, I know what I, you know a lot of interpreters know what they're doing, but it's just that if we had to stay… Well, when we go with the Secretary, we go a different plane, but we would stay in the same hotel, and the security is very tight. But for interpreter, what I am proud is that they know that we are interpreter, and they don't bother. They just, we walk in, walk out any time, any country that we go. We have a ID or credential saying that United States. So, yeah, it is a big deal. It is big. I mean, people have been working there, and they like it. I like it, too, yeah. For every year, I take a week or so, or a couple weeks or so to go with, to go to support the Secretary of State. This is the part of, this is something that I could contribute to my new home, my government, my country. J: My question is related. So, how do you see your work as an interpreter connecting back to your identity and history as a Cambodian refugee? K: Oh, that's a big, yeah. A lot of people, yeah, very proud. I am very happy that I have an opportunity to do this, but once I am at the venue, I'm representing American. So at one point, I almost bump into Hun Sen and their commander and chief, but I do not… AUDIO CUTS, RETURNS TO NORMAL AT 1:14:48 J: So far we've talked about your background, your education, your career. So I want to talk, like a little reflection about being a Cambodian in Lowell. What has your understanding of home have changed over the years? Since you also mentioned this is your, you know, another home. K: Yeah, another home now, yeah. Alright, yeah. I consider America as my home. I do not have any property. I still have second cousins, uncles, and aunts in Cambodia. But I don't have any urge to return to Cambodia. So I don't know in the future, but for now, this is my home and where I raise my children, and I want them to be a part of this country, a part of everything here. So, yeah. J: Because the whole class is, like, the main thing is culture and identity. So would you, how would you, like, differentiate, like, being Cambodian and also American? K: Okay, yeah, yeah. It's kind of difficult. But, you know, a lot of—sometimes when they talk about things that happened in the past and things that I did not have a chance to read about it. Because I came here in mid-20s. Even my own name, when I told them that my name is Keto, they, people reminded me, oh, Keto, just like in a show named Greenhorn where Bruce Lee was acting in that show. So probably new for you too. But I learned that. But I had no clue. And sometimes keep saying or talking or singing, like, Simon say this, Simon say that. Those things, I do not have any recollection at all. Because I came here when I was old. I missed primary school, secondary school. I only went to college, �So anything that happened when I was in college I could remember, I could pick up. That's the only thing, yeah. Being Cambodian-American, just believing or thinking that I am also American. But we just look different. But for people who have different color, skin color or religion, they probably don't think that we are. But this is for me, and this is me. I contribute to this country. I work. I pay tax. I am a part of the society. Whoever say that I am not a part of it, they are right to say it, but I don't have anywhere to go. J: So is there a time where you're struggling with your own identity? Is there a time where you're like “Am I Cambodian or am I American? Am I too whitewashed or am I not Khmer enough?” K: Yeah, there are times that, even working for the trial court, sometimes I feel that there is a lot of injustice going on there. But people who were born here, growing up here, they act a certain way that they probably want to exclude me. And for me, just what I am trying to do is just being me, American, and a part of this society. Regardless of what they are thinking about me, I don't care. This is my home. This is what I've done to this country just as much as other people does. Does that answer your question? J: I mean, it's hard to like, you know, you have two identities and you're trying to cling on to both. And it's hard to like, you know, you can't just identify yourself as just one. You kind of have to like balance it. K: Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, if you tell them. That's why I think Cambodian American is neutral and works well, serves us well. We cannot say that we are American without having Cambodian-American, because the real American who were born here would not accept that. We say Cambodian-American is something to tie us. Even though I have nothing to do with Cambodia or the culture back there. But, you know, at least I still speak language, still like food, eat the food. I cannot take that out even though I am American. And I cannot tell people that I am American who did not eat Cambodian food or who don't have our own culture. This is the balancing that it fit from you. You have to work it out. You don't let other people to give that to you or to decide for you. You are American and you are Cambodian American. J: Is there a time where you feel so connected to Cambodian culture? Like at the pagoda, maybe you're doing something or eating certain food where you feel like you're connected to Cambodia? K: Yeah. Sometimes eating food is, yeah, yeah. Because American, you go, you got American food, there are sandwich, there are fries, but you don't have soup like curry, chicken lemongrass, food that have all these Cambodian ingredients. It's just when eating it, it remind you—especially fruit, tropical fruit. We have a lot of apple, we have peach, cherry, and other fruit here, but I'm still missing fruit like longan or other fruit, durian, jackfruit. Some of them you could find in ethnic store here, but they are expensive. Yeah, I miss a lot of tropical fruit. J: So what would you say is the most Cambodian thing about you, off the top of your head? �K: Most Cambodian thing? J: If I ask you what makes you Cambodian, what would you say? K: Maybe my behavior, I guess. I was growing up in a nice family and I think I'm kind of shaped that way. A lot of people think that—well, I don't really go to the temple, but I'm not a strong religion person. I'm the middle one, the middle. That mean I could get along with people from other culture. I do not impose my culture to other. If they want to know about me, I tell them, but I don't want to influence them to believe that everything I have is better than they do. So I think being humble, being conscientious. Conscientious is understanding your point, understanding my point, and I can connect it there. I don't want to impose, everything has to be me. I accept you, and if you want to accept mine too, it's fine, but if you don't, I understand. Because not every Cambodian is a good Cambodian. Not every American is a good American. There are bad people, there are good people. So I'm trying to, based on the Buddha philosophy, the middle road. J: And I want to know, what are the things that helped you through, not just in the refugee camp, but your entire journey? You mentioned soccer, you mentioned fishing. What other things, like music, art, anything at all? I know you like reading books. K: Not really music. I like books. Music, I didn't have any, what is it called… Well, the thing is that I don't even like music, actually. Because when we grow up, I was growing up, Vietnam War, Khmer Rouge, life in the camp, no one owned a stereo, a radio, a cassette player, only older. And for me, even now when I go, when I am in my car, I listen to the radio. That's my default station, it's radio. So yeah, it gives you perspective, keep yourself updated. So yeah, sport is a big thing, sport and fishing later on. Yeah, sport, I play sport, I play soccer, I play table tennis. So I make good friends with people who play soccer. J: You're so good at badminton. K: Yeah, badminton too, but yeah, come by when it's warm. Yeah, and table tennis, ping pong. Yeah, basically, it's based on your judgment. I've been through a lot. I had friends who were Christian, who were Muslim, who were Buddhism. And some of them believe that they are a strong religious person. But based on their behavior, they're not really good. They're not really good for any religion. So to me, I am not—I believe, I respect people, but I'm not going to be crazy making you believe what I believe. So I don't like it when people think that their religion is the best. People who go to the temple think that Buddhism is the best. Christians think that Christianity is the best. No, I don't go that way. If you want to be my friend, just be nice. J: And is there any message that you want to send to your younger self or to young Cambodian Americans, or even your own children? �K: Oh yeah, to me, to where I am today, education. During the Khmer Rouge, all of us did not have education. I did not go to first grade until I was like 10 years old. Anyway, I believe in education. I said earlier that my uncle, my aunt, had college education. And I always want to be educated. I want to learn. I'm open to learn. Language, math or anything. If there is anything, I don't like to watch TV that much and I like to read more. So to me, until today, I think because of education. And I want people to read and to learn, including my children. Just stick to education. You work hard for the first 20 years of your life and you use it, you enjoy it for the rest of your life. So 20-something years, the first 20-something years of your life, you work hard, study hard, and then after that, you can enjoy. Right now, I don't have to worry too much, concern too much about education because I feel I have it in me. I can dispose it and use it. So education is the main point. I think kids should learn anything, any type of education, any field of study. Luckily, I'm the field that I am very happy with it, but I hope other people are happy with their field of study like science, computer, and I wish them the best of luck. Even at work, kids having trouble go to school sometimes, I went out of my way as an interpreter to try to explain to them and talk to them about life. It's about being tough, being popular. It's about being humble and work hard. So that message, humble and work hard, and get educated in any field. After the Khmer Rouge, my life in the camp, as I mentioned earlier, it goes back to… when we were in the I picked up Thai language and I didn't know that it was useful until we went to another camp to play soccer. Then I was picked out to be an interpreter for the Thai soldier. Then my coach and my teammates were doing push-ups. Afterwards, when my family had an interview, I was asked to become an interpreter. I kept learning, even after that. J: It's kind of like comes full circle, how your love for language and learning and also sport, it's kind of all connected. K: Education and reading, keep it going. J: How do you feel about your legacy in this Khmer community? What are you doing? K: Even though I have a good job, I've done a lot of work, unfortunately, people in this country do not really care about you. Even when you become a politician, it's only a short memory. The best part for me is that I will continue to be myself, not getting in trouble, be nice to others, respect others. About legacy, maybe after I die, but if they see me, they recognize me or not, it doesn't bother me. But at least I know that I have a good reputation of being nice and fair in the community. I think any group, any community that I go to, I make friends and then try to spread kindness. But if they remember or not, it's up to them. I don't want to do good and be kind and try to force people to think about me when I die. No, if they think about me, it's fine. Even working for the trial court, I have been providing service for the trial court for Khmer alone by myself. A lot of judges and attorneys recognize my service, but some people don't care. They say, that's your job, why should I honor your legacy? But that's fine, that's fine. Try to be good, try to be kind and continue. �J: Looking back your whole life, what are you most proud of and what would you like people to remember you and your story? K: Ordinary kid losing a father at a young age. In fact, my relative back in Cambodia, when we were in the camp, there was no communication and they did not know what happened to me or to my family. They thought that maybe I became a rough kid, a rogue kid. Maybe I had kids, had a wife, because that's what my friend had when I was in the camp. When we were in the early 80s, my friend from high school getting married, they have children now, they have grandchildren, and my children are the same age as their grandchildren. Anyway, even when I came to America, I had friends who were in the camps, but when they came, they arrived here, they started working, and I continued to go to school. When they worked, they picked me up, they took me out, they bought food for me, they brought me to other places, they had money, they had car. I did not have a car, but I stick to my goal was to educate. Right now, the friend is still a good friend, but what I learned is that they regretted that they did not go to school. They still take vacation, they have money, but they don't have opportunity to go to work for the secretary or the U.S. government. They are proud to be my friend because I work with the government, work with our leader, and therefore, they are part of me too. But they regret that they did not go to school. J: So who are you most grateful for if you look back? K: Okay, first of all, it's my mother and my sibling. When I came here, I live at home. I live alone on campus, but I still have home to come. Back in the camp, I have an uncle who I live with his family there. I work hard, but yeah, with him, he was actually a high-ranking military officer. He was a general. So my mom could not afford to give money to help me to study English, but my uncle supported me. So besides my mother and my sibling, I have an uncle and a couple aunts and uncles back in Cambodia. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Keto Tan oral history transcript, 2025 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Keto Tan and June Em about his experiences as a refugee moving from Cambodia to America; discusses his childhood before the Khmer Rouge, his time in a Thai refugee camp, learning English and becoming an interpreter in the camp, moving to California, going to college, working in a law firm, and becoming a conference-level interpreter for the Secretary of Defence and Secretary of State. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Em, June Tan, Keto Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Translators Translating services Khmer language Law offices Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/7f956bf39454475087d048e1841f073b.mp3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=A6H6rgjhwOFdSSBlNYjq1qPWCeFCurVpt6BFNLAe%7EEM60WXYAwPJ78gY1r61ogGQE8J9610fm3Ma9wjdEmXiqMHm%7Ezecc-jXO5FdZWNZWlmzQouYXIhTJBBwXt9OmHYYR2awy5v1p2E7Ppw-iIs5JvSYQ%7Ee9tqe4rLf6ukc7wP2uK2F4DKHNOdHUByidwIx-EfJWAMQSmcxv2RoZachkBtGAZcyNzNqEumNtCrqSgjSMW5Rb5IctIvqM4lUz7adlTCXTWNLF-t3gh0i8mEe1ig0aR2pJTtFCRm3Jojd8-TjlU1Bs8Gh1nDJ45LpsFmfWVoADoJJacDCCzu27WgsuSA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 305e82e7a64da9e9ab0c31d2c5418cd1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chenda Prak oral history recording, 2025 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-29 Description An account of the resource Audio of interview between Chenda Prak and Kimseng Soth about his experiences as a refugee moving from Cambodia to America; discusses his time in a Thai refugee camp, his life after moving to the States, going to high school and college, racial discrimination he faced, cultural differences between Cambodia and America, and working at Lowell High School as a Khmer language teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Soth, Kimseng Prak, Chenda Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Race discrimination Asian American educators Khmer language Cultural property Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/36f0da9a249210696e9b4dfe7aeed8c1.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=vdDZbvvMb2uL8ds7EG20RPEtlhBf0yl55oe73ltz3%7EoMihyjS9tiio5MykCMhhlnAhStgA3WraTHq%7ETP2bHl%7EIq63laH33c-k49fh1csVvv3EzY4zMwBwtTJHJMoLu-RgqYcQ2IEFFGBW4fWeM1gzcryR1LBQd0JLycpxzVPWi%7Eghnc2mp1I5aKCsaRzKmlZcEFfaFPw6DWgnNzXTd6rhi7GPL1UiN1ROAZZ4J5Q2d1aLRqjULtqJoUj1TiK6fNVN2omQTY6M2vXWmyHxyZlXZotmmeFrF2WtlO07t4w3Tn0B7s68gFOWHLgHZYtfhQ3AJGGFmxnEY2c9D0RIkWI2Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c1c196209dfbd3fbed3b126951877433 PDF Text Text UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL SOUTHEAST ASIAN DIGITAL ARCHIVE PROLEUNG KHMER STUDENT ORAL HISTORIES, 2025 INFORMANT/NARRATOR: CHENDA PRAK (C) INTERVIEWER: KIMSENG SOTH (K) DATE: MARCH 29, 2025 Notes: Interview has brief mentions of offensive anti-Asian language in relation to personal experiences. K: So yeah, Mr. Prak, right, you're a Lowell High student? Or not Lowell High student, sorry, Lowell High teacher, right? C: Yes, my name is Mr. Prak, Chenda Prak. I am teaching the Khmer at Lowell High School. Yeah. K: So, I'm just going to ask, how do you end up in the U.S? C: I came from Cambodia as a refugee. I left Cambodia in… I think late 1979. The reason I left Cambodia because we had a war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam. So, after the war, everything destroyed. All houses were destroyed… There's no food because all the food… was destroyed, and we had to run across the forest to escape, you know, the shooting, the fighting. When… I… be able to go to town because the Vietnamese took over, and then there's no food. Then there was International Red Cross, they open the camp in the border in Thailand, border Cambodian and Thai—actually, it's a little bit inside the Thai land, because International Red Cross, they rent the land from Thailand to use as a camp for refugees. So, I had no choice but to leave the country to the refugee camp in order to survive. And when I got to refugees camp, I put many application, wrote many applications to American embassy. In 1981, my family got picked, so we flew to United States, and first I was landed in Portland, Maine. And then there's a group of church that helping us. I came to live in Sanford, Maine in... I think late September 1981. I don't know the exact date. I went to school in Sanford, Maine, for… I think three years. I graduated—yeah, four years. I graduated from high school in 1985. And then I went to University of Southern Maine for one year. I had a relative that live in Lowell. We came to visit Lowell. Lowell seemed to be a suitable place for my family. We moved to Lowell. K: What year did you graduate college again? Sorry, I didn't catch that. C: Well, when… I graduated from high school in 1985, then went to University of Southern Maine from… ‘95 to ‘96 and then move to Lowell, and I took one year off. Okay, so… And then 1987, I went to UMass Lowell. And 19… Oh, 1980. I'm sorry, 1987. 1985 graduate from Lowell High. 1986 to 1987, I went to University of Southern Maine, and then we moved to Lowell, and I took one year off. At that time, I also worked at the Lowell High School from 1987 to 1988. Yeah, I work in Lowell High School, you know, 1 �help translate for students and stuff. And then 1988 to 1989, I also went full time to UMass Lowell. That time, the name wasn't UMass Lowell. University of Lowell, that time, so and we combine with UMass. And then I got married and then I get kids. So, I had no choice but to go to school part-time and at night and go to work in the daytime. I started in 1989. When I graduated, I'm sorry, I graduated from UMass Lowell. 1995, but not from day school, from night school. K: So when you talked about coming here with your friends, right, and to come see your relatives, what was the biggest part about Lowell? Or what was the biggest thing that stuck out for you with Lowell? That made it better than Maine. C: Well, we live in Maine ... not too many Asian family live in Maine. And it pretty hard because with my parents, they don't speak much English. For me, it's okay because I speak, be able to speak English, but with my parents, they couldn't speak much English. Communication is much a problem, and also the... what they call, the... the food. Also that there are not too many Khmer foods. So we came to visit Lowell, and then there's a lot of Khmer store in Lowell, a lot of Khmer live in Lowell, and it seemed to be like a suitable place for my family. A lot of Cambodian are living in Lowell, so that my parents don't need to use my English to go around. So I think, you know, Lowell seem like a city of the melting pot. Like international country, because we have all kinds of people from many different countries, and not like in Maine. In Maine, mostly just… More people that was born there and, you know. So then like I said, not… Not many of any other races than white. So, you know, I'm sorry, I'm not racist, but I just say that. K: No, that's fine. C: But a few Asian there, that's all so… K: So you mentioned that there were... previously that you had a lot of prejudice back in Maine, and there was a lot of insults like “chink” thrown at you. Was there any specific moment that really stuck out to you? Like, any specific moment of prejudice that really stuck out to you to this day? C: Well, when I attended in… Sanford High School. Like I said, because there are not too many Asian there. Maybe they were like… seven… Cambodians in there, and one Vietnamese, and one black. Besides that, all white and... some racist kids there, you know, like I said that I’ve been called a "gook,” “chink” and all kinds of stuff. Because they didn't think us that… We were Cambodian. They thought that we were Vietnamese, and then those people, they don't like Vietnamese because the war between Vietnam and American there. So every time they see Asian, they think that… that person is a Chinese or Vietnamese. That make it very tough for me to live there. I don't have a good experience. You know, talking about my high school, because I didn't have fun during my school, like I see a lot of other kids here in Lowell. I mean, yeah, Lowell High School that they have friend, and they enjoy. I didn't have much fun at all. So every day that I was in school just that, you just try go to school, finish school, go home right away, and 2 �then do my homework and just stay home. I couldn't go out too much because… We don't have too many friends. K: So… When you eventually moved over to Lowell. You went to UMass. What was the process of attending college like without much help? Because I'm assuming since that… you are a refugee, and your parents didn't really know English, how was the college process for you? C: Well, like I said, I went to University of Southern Maine for one year, but more of the classes that I took at University of Southern Main was just a prep. But when I came to Lowell, into the UMass Lowell. It was much easier because also… met many of Cambodian friends here that go to the same school, and we became friend, and we organize and we create a group called, you know, Khmer Club or Association, there at UMass Lowell. We help each other. So, I mean, much easier when you have friends you can help each other. There were like maybe 15… people that, in that year that entered the UMass Lowell, Cambodian, you know. But… They were a good friend. K: So… After the 80s and the 90s with the civil rights movements against prejudice and racism, what was it like for you seeing that movement go from, like, seeing just all that racism kind of go away and that prejudice? C: I don't know if it go away or not because I never been moving back to Sanford, but here to Lowell, I mean, it's just that everybody... I mean, many nationalities here that live in Lowell. Like I said, Lowell is like the city or the melting pot. Spanish… They speak Spanish. You know, like French, they speak French. Thai, they speak Thai. Laos, they could talk Laos. People, you speak Khmer in the public, but nobody look at anybody that, “Oh, that language is crazy.” That language is, you know. Nobody make fun of anybody. And also, not just the language, but the way we dress. Same thing. We'd be able to dress up to show our cultures in the public. They're dressed in Khmer outfit, and then, I mean—Very comfortable. Very comfortable. I see a lot of Indian here in Lowell, Indian people. They wear Indian outfit. It just… okay here, but in Sanford, Maine, they probably get… spit at or call or cry your name, I don't know. I don't know about that. I said Lowell here is the city of melting pot because there are many nationality here. And also… When I went outside alone, people ask me, “Oh, where are you from?” I told them that I'm from Lowell. And a lot of people say, “Wow, you from Lowell? Aren’t you scared? Aren’t you afraid?” I told them, “No. Lowell is a good place.” They said, "Wow. I hear a lot of bad things about Lowell.” I told them that only a little spot that there's bad and—the news always bad and everywhere, but it's just that you go to Lowell, you walk by yourself and... You know, you don't bother people, people won't bother you. It seemed that Lowell has a bad name of outside Lowell, but it's just that… For me, I think Lowell is very safe place, so. K: Yeah, for me, I've seen Lowell just become way more modernized and it's easier to walk out at night. I mean, sometimes my parents get concerned, but it's a lot easier, I would say, just for high schoolers to walk alone now because there's cops everywhere and it's— 3 �everything has now since they have access to phones and everything, it's a lot safer for everyone. And since Lowell is such a small community, everyone knows each other, kind of. So if you're someone of high school age, you could just walk out of Lowell High after school and just be able to walk home. C: Yeah, at Lowell High School right now, I could see that people are getting along well with Black, white, and Asian. They have boyfriend and girlfriend, very friend with each other. Before, they're like… divided, no white and Asian and Spanish is sitting at the lunchroom and different tables, but not now. Now everybody's friendly with each other. We make because most of the kid, they going from kindergarten to school together. They… friend together. Much, much better place than before. K: Talking about Lowell High, what about Lowell High, or what moments at Lowell High really stick out to you when you're teaching there? What really sticks out to you as a teacher when you're there at Lowell High? C: We just have fun. We have enjoy. We just try to have fun every day. You know… While working, teaching and while school learning, we also try to have fun, laughing with each other, helping with each other. I mean… It's every year. Every year, it's just like the same year. K: Yeah. So you run the Khmer Club, right? C: Yes. K: I just wanted to ask what type of activities do you do at the club meets. C: Right now, we meet every Wednesday for an hour to an hour and a half. We talk about… We're planning for Khmer New Years. We learn all the Khmer traditions, how we greeting, how are you greeting the older people. Also it provided place for a student, the newcomer that they just got here. Personally, they were very scared, but when they enter the club, they meet more, you know, meet others, Cambodian kid, they feel more comfortable. It’s pretty good there. K: So… With, well, having it be the start of April, the Khmer New Year Festival is coming up. And you told me about the New Year's festival. So if I'm right, you do it yearly, right? Every year at all Lowell High? C: Yeah, we do it every year. K: What type of stuff do you actually do at the these… festivals or the celebrations at Lowell High? For the New Year's? C: Well, we have Khmer food. And people could come and taste the Khmer food. And we have a Khmer traditional dance, like Blessing dance, [Trot Chaiyam?], [unknown] this year. And we also… playing the traditional game, like they're playing in Cambodia, like 4 �[names of games]. Most of the… activity that they do at the temple in Cambodia, that we try to do that like, what they call… [leak com saeng?], it’s more like duck duck goose. And we play, what they call, [dam sleuch cheur?]. I don't know where you know that, you know, they're two groups, they try to still try to steal Sometimes they put the shoe instead of leaves… it’s hard to explain, you have to, you know, draw… K: Yeah. C: Tug of war. Racing sack, you know, sack racing. Hitting piñata. So there's a lot of stuff that we're doing just… And also dance, the regular dance like Khmer dance. Like [Khmer dance names]. K: Okay. So I'm going to go back to this question from before, and it was about how do you identify yourself culturally? You told me before that when you were here in Lowell, you can say you're Khmer are confident in it, but when you said when… you talked about going to Cambodia, you feel like you're an outsider, right? And it's because people, I think if I'm getting it right, that people over there don't see you as Khmer because you are… since you're so exposed to the American culture here, you kind of sometimes dress differently. I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about that. C: Yeah, because I've been here in the US for… well, about 42, 44 years. And when I got to U.S, I was about 18 years old, and now… I’m 62 now. So I've been living in Cambodia only, I mean was living in Cambodia for only like… 18 years, maybe… Let's say 16 years because there are two years I left Cambodia to live in Thailand. Still, in the camp was a lot of Khmer people. So I don't have anything over there in Cambodia. I don't own land. I don't own houses over there, so when I go to Cambodia, I just like you, just like any other American that go to visit Cambodia, because the only difference is that I have some relative over there and I can speak the language. And people over there in Cambodia the, I don't know. They look at you, they know you right away that you are not living in Cambodia. So sometimes they try to jack up the price… You know, they rip you off because they know that you not from Cambodia. And… I don't feel at home because, like I said, I don't have the house over there. I have a house over here, you know. Like no place like home. My home is in the U.S, you know? K: Yes. C: So. And people, they look at you, they can tell right away that you're not living in Cambodia. And… K: I understand because for me, since I dress so like different and I don't look too Khmer, I guess. I think when I visited, I think people kind of immediately knew like I was American because of the way I kind of… showed myself. And for me, because I didn't know the language as well, it kind of was really hard to actually just be in Cambodia. I'm not in somewhere where I'm used to. The only thing I have is also relatives. But I think… Yeah, it's tough having to deal with things like that. 5 �C: When I went to Cambodia, I try my best to fit in. So the way they… the way they wear, the way they dress, but it's still that… Sometimes they can't tell the way I talk, because they say that the kind of talk change because… Many Cambodian now doesn't talk like all the Cambodian before. I guess what, that's what they told me. I could ask them, “how do you know that I am not… You know, living in Cambodia?” said, “Oh, I can tell from the way you talk.” But I try to avoid talk about like… I try not to talk like that, but still they know. K: Yeah. C: I lost a bet once, in Siem Reap. With the people that work over there, with the, what do you… yeah, the cleaner, the cleaner in the hotel. They said that, “Oh, you are not from Cambodia.” I said, “No, I'm living in Cambodia.” And they said, “No, you are not. So let's make a bet.” So I bet with a girl there, I mean, we don't give each other money or something. We just bet to losing or winning, that's only the bet. What she did was… She didn't put the toilet paper in my bathroom. And when I asked her for toilet paper. And she knew why right away. No. You call me Pu. It mean, uncle, right? You know that? Khmer, people, they don't— K: They don't use toilet paper, right? Yeah. C: They use water. And you are not around here. So I lost my bet. K: That was one of the things that shocked me when I went there when I was back in like, I think the sixth, seventh grade. But it was hard to get used to that. So my next question is now, with all of that, since you are a teacher, I want to ask what your hopes are with like the students or what do you hope for them in the future, for your students. C: Well, my hope is that… all my Khmer people still be able to speak Khmer, and be able to keep Khmer traditions here and… Also, religion. Since we have many temple here in Lowell, but as you know that…Everything start with the language. If you don't speak their language, you don't want to go to temple because you don't understand what they are talking about. Everything start with language. So I hope that all the Khmer people are still hold on to their root and be able to speak Khmer to… To keep Khmer tradition here. And also religion. I know that many people your age be able to understand but cannot talk sometime. And a lot of people don't go to the temple. K: Yeah. I can't say too much about going to the temple because I have stopped going for actually quite a while now. But I still try to at least… try to use Khmer because my house still actively uses Khmer a lot. C: Yeah. K: And I still know how to understand a lot. Like if someone talks to me in Khmer, I'll understand almost all of it. Which is… 6 �C: So I'm very happy right now because… I'm very proud actually I’m very proud of myself to be a teacher because I'll be able to give… Teaching a very important job. Because I'm a Cambodian. I teach Khmer language, a Cambodian language to the kid and also culture, mean more than other subjects. And I go everywhere in Lowell right now, so I always meet my former students. They always say, “[Hello], Lok-Gru” everywhere. Even though…In the store, while they working in the register, they also see me, they take time to, “Oh, [hello].” And then they go on to do the business. Yeah, I like that. And that's very respectful. And I mean, almost everywhere I go, like the bank like, for example, we went to a Western studio (K: Yeah) the other day, I had a few students that worked there, they, you know, talk to them they greeting me in Khmer. And I'm very, very, very good, very proud. K: Yeah. Okay. Can you tell me about a time when you felt your heritage, or can you tell me a time where you felt proud of your heritage? C: Like, can you repeat? K: Can you tell me about a time when you were like proud to be Khmer? C: When I go to the temple. And I see a lot of my students like go to the temple also, and we talk. I also meet with my student’s parents at the temple. We don't talk about school, but we talk about… See each other, say hello to each other, get to know each other. I’m very, very, very… happy with that. [The final 5 minutes of this oral history are restricted due to the personal nature of the conversation. Please contact the Center for Lowell History with questions.] 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Prolong Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance Exhibit [2025] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025 Description An account of the resource Proleung Khmer: A 50-Year Journey of Resilience and Remembrance was a commemoration event that took place in Lowell from March 2025 to June 2025. The event included displays at the Loading Dock Gallery and at City Hall. Additionally, students conducted oral history interviews under the guidance of Christine Su, a visiting faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright: This collection is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use items in this collection in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Community Development Restaurant owners Gay community Monks Buddhist centers Buddhist doctrines Refugees Asian American educators Refugee camps Group identity Generational trauma Generational conflict Post-traumatic stress disorder Khmer language Set designers Theater Psychology Arts, Cambodian Cultural property Small business Children of immigrants College students Musicians Rhythm and blues music Translators Translating services Law offices Laotian Americans Race discrimination Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF mp3 m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio recording Transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chenda Prak oral history transcript, 2025 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-29 Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview between Chenda Prak and Kimseng Soth about his experiences as a refugee moving from Cambodia to America; discusses his time in a Thai refugee camp, his life after moving to the States, going to high school and college, racial discrimination he faced, cultural differences between Cambodia and America, and working at Lowell High School as a Khmer language teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Soth, Kimseng Prak, Chenda Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Interviews completed as part of Professor Christine Su's Asian American Studies Class in Spring 2025 at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. Subject The topic of the resource Cambodian Americans Refugees Refugee camps Race discrimination Asian American educators Khmer language Cultural property Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell (Mass.) https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/1299ea2ce69f79d3e189893c114291fa.pdf?Expires=1792627200&Signature=PSOY4OvAHj2xL84IuWi9uUDEPAZqlaIB8jobqyJk%7EBP1sh31yoyGuJtv9IXSJqYWQkeRFBEiN9WY2fNnnmzxILqCpJVlbiOlIQ95Xn4k0UalA2j%7EerudWOjdW1A88qXLcpKpfvvjt0eghUM1b291pNZF%7Eyt1YlYy-AXy9Q6cIBHHIDURaFMIoOwVWokMewsx6wUwfreB5ZnpCPfQMY5AV6lT2nWYpOXceRD1YoIWE2-8og6NLt4LX32DSxSyDGUnSWdAmJ3-44lON5ElbphNv-V6feFY6WcivzE1av%7EQ57szTi0fVmu6CkLwKjGEafcsSQBUIVNB12p0CLZNrwcIWQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a09e6a58161f68cefa859cf5ce702e00 PDF Text Text UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL CENTER FOR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES ORAL HISTORY PROJECT INFORMANT: CAROL KEIRSTEAD INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI KALE CONNERTY DATE: MARCH 5, 2016 C=CAROL A=ALI K=KALE A: So this is interview with Carol Keirstead. Is that how you say it, Keirstead? C: Keirstead, yup. A: Keirstead, on March 5, 2016. And Carol thanks very much for willing to share some time for us. C: Excited to do it. A: Good, great. K: All right. Well I’ll just ask the first question. What do you know about the circumstances under which the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] was founded? C: Um, what I know about its founding was Hai Ba Pho and his wife Lan Pho were Vietnamese refugees who settled in the country, and they wanted to establish an organization that was really, ultimately they wanted it sort of for and by the refugee community. So it was formed at a Mutual Assistance Association, which if memory serves me correctly was really to be governed by members of the refugee community. So, and his, his dream which actually came to fruition was to have the refugee community actually you know, set up their own service organizations. So that’s what I recall about that a few years ago. [All laugh] K: When did you start working for the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]? 1 �C: In 1982. K: Okay. And how long were you working there? C: Two years. K: Okay. Where had you previously been working? C: The year before that I was with the university. I managed a Masters ESL Program for teachers in Lowell Public Schools. It was a federally funded project. So we trained “mainstream” classroom teachers to be able to effectively instruct English language learners. So I did that for a year. K: While you (--) A: I’m sorry. And Carol how did you get, get into this field overall? C: So way back when Ed Moloney and I worked together for CETA, which was the, you know, federally funded sort of Skills in Employment Service Agency. And for whatever reason you know at the time when refugees were coming into the city I just sort of took it upon myself to reach out and do as best I could to serve that community through that program. And so at one point he said to me, “Carol, you know, Jackie is going to be leaving her position and I think you’d be great for it.” And I said, “Well I, you know, I’m not so sure about that,” you know, but anyway. So he encouraged me to apply and I did and got the job. So. A: And where were you working for CETA previously like geographically? C: In Lowell. A: In Lowell, and where in Lowell? C: Yup, it was up on Appleton Street. You know where the court is now? A: Oh 89 Appleton, (C: You got it) The old Post Office? C: Yup. A: Okay. All right, that makes sense. And go ahead Kale. K: How did you see the services offered by the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] change while you were there? Did you see any change? You were only there for two years, but. C: Right. So in terms of change the actual services didn’t change much that I recall. Again that was a long time ago. You know what changed over time was either one, the 2 �nature of the population, or the size of the population that we were serving. I mean when we first started refugees were being resettled at a pretty rapid rate in this city. So we were pretty, it was a pretty busy place. Yah, so over time I think it was the nature of the population that we were serving, not so much the services. A: And tell us about those changes and the different people coming and going. C: Yah, so you know it would vary. It was Vietnamese, Cambodian and Lao that we served and it just changed over time. The Vietnamese community was much smaller that we served ultimately just by sheer numbers, and the Cambodian community kind of started to excel. And there were a fair number of Lao families that we served as well. And that over time, probably even after I left, just kind of flattened and the Khmer population just kept, you know, people just kept relocating. A: And why do you think the Cambodian population kind of grew where the other ones stayed maybe smaller? C: You know I think it was just a phenomenon of having a solid sort of community who then would reach out to family, because Lowell at the time had very good employment situation. So we could get people jobs pretty easily. A: Um. C: So the word would get out and family would come and resettle. You know at the time there were pockets all across the country for different communities. Like the Hmong were in Minnesota. So for whatever reason communities just began to sort of invite and encourage people to come and resettle. A: Where were you running the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] out of when you took over? C: 79 High Street. A: And tell us about that building, what was going on there. C: Yah, so the first floor was the International Institute, and then the second floor was us, very small office space. And then we had, there was like an annex, which was a very large room where we could hold functions and hold classes, and stuff like that. So it was great because the International Institute was right below us. So we could collaborate a lot on serving people. K: What do you think were the most essential services you offered? What was the most important? C: Hm. Well the obvious ones right would be employment services and language services. We had ESL Employment and Cultural Orientation Services. So those were 3 �critical. People needed jobs, but I think overall it was the welcoming, culturally sensitive, supportive, proactive sort of approach that we took to just you know, helping people to resettle in a new community. So we’d do things like you know, have big household drives to have people donate all kinds of things, because the refugee community they just needed so much. They were in pretty substandard housing by in large. I mean I recall at the time there were a couple of prominent landlords and the housing was pretty substandard. So you know, that was (--) So we did what we did and more. A: Yah. Who were some of the landlords around town that were notable? C: It was George [Chambros], [Chambers], [Chamberos]? A: Chamberas? C: Yah, was the biggie. A: Okay. How about Mr. Saab? C: No, he wasn’t, that I knew of he wasn’t somebody that we encountered. A: He might have gravitated over to the commercial stuff by that point. C: Yah probably. A: Because I know he had a lot in the, maybe in the 60s and 70s. I wasn’t sure. C: And I sponsored a family while I was in my role. A: Yah? C: And the family I sponsored was a very, a family you know, non-literate and you know from the Province. And so I had to work over a year’s time with them to help them get housing and get settled and all that stuff. I’ll never forget the first time we found an apartment for them. It was a decent apartment over in Centralville. And I was helping them unpack, and you know getting everything settled. And we had all kinds of things donated for them. And you know it was just so remarkable to step back and understand what the experience was like for them, right. So a hairdryer, like they were just so fascinated with a hairdryer. They thought it was to cook meat right. A: Oh, to cook meat? C: Right, and then you know, we were helping them put stuff away and they were putting all the meat in the drawers and all of the appliances in the refrigerator. I mean just you know, they had no idea. 4 �K: Yah. C: So it was quite the learning experience. And a lot of the work that I did was advocacy work, particularly with the school department, because at the time they were enrolling I think it was like fifty students a week at one point. A: Wow. K: Wow. C: And you know, we were hearing, you know there was one case I’ll never forget. There was a girl who probably had PTSD. No, I know she had PTSD, and they didn’t know what to do with her. So they kept her home. They didn’t serve her. So a lot of the work we did had to be sort of advocacy oriented in working with other organizations to help them understand the population and help them do right by them. A: Yah. What made you decide that you wanted to sponsor that one family? C: Well my thing was to sort of walk the talk in what I do. So I just wanted to do that as part of you know, not just get paid for the work but the refugee community would actually step up and help out. K: Okay. So what were all of your duties and stuff? You already talked about advocacy work, but what else were [unclear]? C: So I supervised the staff that we had. We had bilingual bicultural staff. I oversaw all of the programming. Oversaw all of the paperwork with Office of Refugee Resettlement, you know, had to oversee all of the records and stuff like that. A: And that was a federal agency? C: Yes. And so you know, all of the administrative things that go along with an administrative job, which I didn’t have a clue how to do until I got this job. So it was really learning on the job, but it was great. And I’d say, you know, a fair amount of it was really outreach to the community and helping you know, doing cultural orientations out in the community. Really just helping develop understanding as much as I could about, you know, the communities that were coming into Lowell. K: Was there anything while you were on your job that you found unexpected, like any tasks that you had to do that you weren’t prepared for, well not prepared for but just weren’t expecting? C: Yah, firing staff was hard. [Laughs] 5 �A: Yah, and without going into the specific persons what was the kind of nature of the work that made it difficult? C: It was a staff person that was, you know, I adored him and he was well respected in the community, but just didn’t do his job. So you know, at some point you have to address things like that and it’s hard, particularly when you’re a white female and the person is a member of the community. It’s very difficult. So that was my probably biggest challenge. A: Was there any kind of fallout with the community from that? C: Yes, this individual actually, yes there was. A: Okay. K: How many people do you think you helped over there, how many families? C: Oh Lord. You know I’m sorry. I wouldn’t even know how to, I wouldn’t know how to do that. You probably have the record. I just don’t even (--) I know we had to report on it every month. We had to submit monthly reports. A: Yah. No, that’s fine. K: We actually might have those in our archives, yah. C: That would be interesting to see, yah. A: Could you describe the community as they were coming into Lowell? And you talked about the, you know, kind of issues with understanding kind of technology and things like that, which they had never seen before. C: Right, right. So I guess it was really recognizing that what they had to become accustomed to and what they had to learn was going to take time. And that they just needed a lot of support to acculturating and learning what they needed to learn, and in the employment setting. So that was a whole other thing. So my job as director that was my (--) We had ESL teachers, and we had cultural specialists, but my job was to find jobs for people. That was part of my role. So you know, I had to make sure that the work place could accommodate people who were, you know, had various levels of education and, you know, could handle expectations in the work place and stuff like that. So that was, that was a challenge. A: So tell us what companies were out kind of that you connected with? C: I remember a big one was BASF. (A: Umhm) So there were a lot of electronic firms at that time and medical supply firms where all folks would have to do is piecework, put stuff together. And it was a pretty good job in the tech industry. So Wang, some people 6 �could get in. Not a lot, but some people could get into Wang. But there were a couple. BASF I remember and it will come to me after you leave. [Laughs] A: That’s fine. C: There are a few sort of you know, our go-tos. A: Where was BASF? Was that in Nashua? C: Bedford. A: Oh Bedford, okay. Good. And do you remember any kind of stories connected with people getting jobs and you know, perceptions on that and feelings from the community response? C: Can you say more about that? What are you, what are you thinking? A: Yes. Just I mean did, um, you know, do you remember any particular stories where you know, you got somebody a job and it really kind of changed their outlook, or their family’s outlook? C: I’m sure. I just can’t at the top of my head recall. You know I’m sure there were many, but yah. A: Yah. What was the, what’s your perception on the city’s reception of these immigrants? C: I would say one of the reasons we ended up with such a large community is because by in large the city stepped up. They didn’t always do the right thing, but by in large the city really stepped up I think. You know, a lot of the churches were heavily involved. Eliot Church, Saint Patrick’s was a huge supporter. Yah, so churches played a big role in really helping refugee communities. So I would say yah, Lowell was pretty, Lowell did a pretty good job. A: Is there any way to find like what that could be attributed to? C: So who would have been there at the time? Gee, I can’t even tell you. George Tsapatsaris was the Superintendent of Schools. A: Okay. Did you guys have a relationship with the school department? C: I did, you know, it was sometimes heated because I did go to bat for people. A: Okay. C: So sometimes I’d be told you know, tell that Keirstead to cease and desist. [Laughs] 7 �A: Why? Over what issues? C: You know, I (--) This is who I am. I don’t like injustice. Where there’s injustice I do whatever I can do. So when I saw cases where kids weren’t being served well, like a classroom was set up in a bathroom for a group of Laotian kids. I said, “Uh huh, not okay.” Um, that student I remember going to bat for because she had some you know, she was dealing with some emotional trauma and they kept her home. They wouldn’t serve her. So it was things like that. I just (--) A: And I’m sorry, when you said they wouldn’t serve, I originally thought you meant the family, but you were talking about the school department? C: School department. A: Okay, and was that Cambodian? C: She was Lao I believe this particular girl. A: Okay. C: You know how certain people stand out in your mind? Yah, but you know so at the same time George respected me and I respected him, but I had to just, you know, do that and he had to push back. So you know. A: Where was the, which school were the kids in the bathroom originally? C: The Daley. A: The Daley? Okay. [Chuckles] All right, and I imagine there was some, I mean, growing pains from the school department’s perspective right? C: Oh everybody was out of space and it was, I mean really they were registering like fifty kids a week. And after I left the Indochinese Refugee Foundation I went to work. They recruited me for the public school system. So I ran the Southeast Asian Curriculum Program. And so you know, I then saw it on that end. Yah, I mean. And then I worked at the, did you hear about the Moore Street School? A: They Morey? C: Moore Street? A: Moore Street School up in the Grove. C: Yah, so it was really the only segregated publically supported school that had existed in a very long time. It was all Cambodian kids. 8 �A: Now how did that school become only Cambodians? Had it been closed previously? C: It was a private catholic that was closed by the Diocese. A: Okay. C: So Lowell rented it I guess (A: Okay) and set it up to serve this huge population of kids they didn’t have a place to put. So that was in existence. I worked there for like a year with Bob Keegan. He was the principle. He’s since passed away, but um, yah. So that was an interesting experiment. A: What was that school like? How would you describe it? C: So I thought it was wonderful. I mean I get segregation, I get it, but it was a protected, all about these kids, giving them what they needed in environment. They didn’t have to deal with being treated whatever. So it was a protected environment and we could design the program just for them. A: Um. C: In fact, have you seen the Southeast Asian book? Probably right? A: The Jim Higgins photo book? C: The cover, that’s the Moore Street School. A: Yah, I, well I just was looking at that book recently and I said, “Where the heck was this school?” I didn’t know anything about it. (C: Yah) So when you said it I was, yah. C: Yah, funny. A: What else can you talk about with that school? What were the programs that you were running that wouldn’t be found anywhere else? C: Well it was you know, before it was a bilingual program. So back then we believed in bilingual education in this state. We don’t anymore by the way. So it was a bilingual program where kids had native language instruction and ESL. So we could design the program so that they got their content, you know, in the native language and then had sort of sheltered English class instruction too. So it was great. A: What was the building like physically? Was it in a decent shape? C: It was decent. A: Okay. 9 �C: Yah, yah, it was okay. A: No leaky roofs or anything? C: No, no, it was okay. A: Okay, good. Um, you talk about Lowell being basically an accommodating community. Any instances where you remember where it didn’t shine in that area? C: Housing I would say. A: And what were the issues there? C: Really substandard housing. I mean most of the families when I’d go visit, you know, they’d be roaches all over the walls. They’d be roach paper just like wallpaper, you know, so just really substandard housing. A: And did the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] get involved in kind of helping to change that situation? C: You know I’m sure we tried. You know we tried to get families into the best housing situations we could, but there was limited, limited stock so to speak. And you know, it was a big, it’s a bigger issue than we could take on, because it’s really, it’s you know, it hasn’t changed. [Laughs] A: Yah, yah. C: So. A: I know there was a group around town I think primarily connected to churches, but the Ethnic Covenant? C: Oh my God, yah! Jay. Jay. What was his name? Great group. A: Okay. Tell us what you know about the group. C: Oh, [unclear] the dust off the cobwebs. Jay was the gentleman who founded it I believe. And I remember they authored a paper called “Thirty Pieces of Silver” maybe? Right, is that is? A: I think that’s it, yah. C: Um, so yah, they were a very advocacy oriented group who really I think sought to speak the truth on behalf of vulnerable populations. Yah, yah, God thank you for mentioning that. 10 �A: Did the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] have any connection with them? C: Yah, yah, we, I can’t remember exactly what we did together, but we definitely collaborated and communicated a lot. Yah, yup. A: Tell us about the everyday work week at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]. C: It was, I mean the reason I stayed for two years is because I ate, breathed and slept right, because it was just nonstop, never ending. It didn’t end at 5:00. So yah, I mean that was primarily why I had to sort of go to a “more normal job”. It was you know, doing the administrative stuff and then dealing with things all day long that would come up; refugees coming in with whatever issues that they had and we would have to figure out how to help them. So it was doing your regular job and then attending to people’s needs as they would come through the door, which you never knew what those were going to be. A: Jackie told us a little bit about some of the issues that the refugees had with kind of accessing health services. Do you have any (--) C: Yes, yah, yes. So I would say a big issue for refugees, and I don’t know what Jackie’s perspective was, they were very reluctant in a way to access American medical services. And we often would have to (--) Oh, I just thought about this other case. Oh my God. A: Yah, tell us about that case. C: I’m just getting emotional. Sorry. A: That’s okay. That’s okay. Sorry. C: Wow, I didn’t expect that one. [Crying] A: That’s okay, take a few minutes. C: So there was this day, and in walked a woman with her daughter in her arms and her daughter was almost lifeless. So Chulathy was her name. And so we arranged to have her taken by ambulance to the hospital and I ended up following her for quite some time and they could never figure out what was wrong with her. And you know part of me is feeling like I should have done more, but whatever. And she just like languished in the system and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with her. She was dying and I’ll never (--) They let her go home at some point and somewhat later I heard that she just died in Lowell High School. She just died. So, I mean and I tried to work with the family and it was just you know, a lot of Southeast Asians believe in spiritual even sometimes sort of ghosts like things right. And so translating between that belief system and western medicine is nearly impossible. And then you got the language barrier in between. So I, you know, I worked with the family and I worked with you know, I’d go 11 �to visit Chulathy and she just always, she was always doing this. It hurt, it hurt, it hurt, and they could never figure out what she had. A: So she was always holding her fist to her chest? C: Yup, like this and they never could figure out what she had. So, sorry. A: Other issues on medical or health access? C: There weren’t the language and cultural resources that of course there are now. So it was really, really difficult. Yah, I didn’t even think of that. It was really difficult to get adequate care for people because of the language barrier and the cultural barriers. Yah. A: So talk about the language barriers in general? C: Well I didn’t speak any of the language [laughs]. So I always had to rely on you know, my folks to translate. And so when refugees would go do whatever they had to do they would always have to find somebody, oftentimes the younger kid in the family, and rely on that person as their translator which right, is not ideal. So yah, it was, it was really tough. And that was a lot of the work that our staff had to do, which they weren’t paid to do really. I mean their jobs were not to be translators, but there you go right. K: Umhm. A: Yah, yah. Any funny stories about IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] workplace? C: Yah, so this may not want to be (--) [Laughs] You don’t have to stop it but there were a lot of funny things, but I’ll never forget this one time. Alise Martin, do you know Alise Martin? A: Yah. C: She was the ESL teacher. A: Oh she worked at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]? C: Yah. A: Okay. That’s another interview. K: We have her [unclear]. C: And I think she was the teacher at this time. We had a couple while I was there, but I went down to the classroom just to check on things. And we often had people donate goods. So we’d have plastic bags all along the side of the classroom. So I went down 12 �and looked in the classroom and there was a big ruckus going on. And I’m like everybody is laughing and you know, I’m like what’s going on? So what happened was somebody had donated things and there was a box on tampons in there. And the Ref, whoever found them thought they were firecrackers. So they’re all trying to light tampons. [All laugh] That was a fun one, yah. A: Other kind of workplace issues at the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]? C: You know we always could have used more. It was always a scramble to have enough resources to do what we needed to do. And I don’t remember at the time. I remember getting some grants here and there, some small grants to do different things, but I can’t recall what they were. A: Yah. Now you worked with the federal government. Did you work with any state agencies? C: We, I’m trying to think. Well there was the Office of Refugee Resettlement in Massachusetts. So every state has its own. A: Okay. C: Yah, yah. A: Okay. So the office you primarily dealt with was kind of, they controlled the funds that the federal government (--) C: Right. A: Okay I see. C: They were sort of a pass through. A: Do you remember any individuals or issues with the state? C: No. I mean like any, I’ve managed many of those things since then. Like there are always challenges with it, but you know. A: Yah, regular bureaucracy stuff. C: Yah, right, right, nothing that I can recall out of the ordinary. A: Good. K: Did you see funding change while you were there at all? C: I don’t remember. Really I don’t remember. 13 �K: Did working with the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] change your perspective on anything, like such as minority groups, non-profit work? C: It was life changing for me. K: Really. C: Because when I left there I went to work for the school department and then I went to work overseas in a Refugee Program. So I never would have done that if I hadn’t had this opportunity. And then I adopted somebody from Cambodia. So it really was life changing for me. K: Now where did you work overseas? C: In the Philippines, in the Philippine Refugee Camp. K: And was that the camp where Cambodians and other folks from Southeast Asia were coming? C: A lot. There were several camps in Thailand and then there was PRPC in the Philippines, and there were a couple of smaller ones in Indonesia. A: Okay. C: When I went the largest population were Amerasians. A: From mainly from Vietnam? C: Umhm. A: Okay. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in that project? C: So when I was at the Refugee Foundation I was able to make contacts. I also worked at Middlesex Community College in between, that’s right. So I worked at Lowell Public Schools. Then I went to Middlesex and help set up the new campus, because what they wanted to do in setting up the new campus with Molly Sheehy was my, person I worked with, was to set up what they called a Resource Center, because they wanted to provide outreach services to the Southeast Asians in setting up the new campus. So I did that for two years. So through my work at the Foundation and through Middlesex I made contacts with the U.S. State Department. And when I decided I wanted to try it I just called and said, “How do you do that?” And the women said, “Well here’s what you do.” And so I applied to this organization and they flew me down for an interview. And within a month I was gone. So yah, it was great. A: Good. So tell us about the camps. There was one major camp for? 14 �C: The one I worked in was one major camp, but there were many camps and operation at that time in Thailand. So a lot of Refugees from Lowell, some would have come through the camp I worked at, some would have come through Thailand. A: From Khao-I-Dang C: Yup, Phanat Nikhom, Khao-I-Dang, yup. A: And what was the camp that you worked at in the Philippines? C: It was called PRPC, Philippine Refugee Processing Center. Bad name! What are we, cows? Yah, anyway. So it was a really large camp. We serviced I think at any one time there were about 100,000 people there. It was nine kilometers long. It was along a ridge. It was beautiful, gorgeous, and there were several international organizations there, like World Relief. ICMC was the group I worked for. There were many, many, many. So my group ran the, what they called the Pass Program, which was for kids 11.5 - 16 who were coming to the states. So it was like a school to get them ready for school here. So I ran that program. A: And would those kids be orphans primarily? C: They were, they were not on paper orphans. So a lot of the, you probably know this, so a lot of the Amerasians kids that ended up coming came through very nefarious means. So they were orphans in their country, but because people knew they were gold tickets to get to the states. That’s what they were called. They would sort of adopt them to get to the states. A: Oh! So parents that had no blood, or people that had no blood connections to (--) C: In some cases right. And in some, you know, that wasn’t all of the cases, but it was prevalent. And in some cases you know, the families really did care about the kids. And then we had a Khmer population while I was there. And did we have Lao? If we had Lao it was like miniscule. So it was mostly Vietnamese and Khmer when I was there. And the Catholic Church was there, the Mormons were there. I mean it was like a whole community. A: Yah. Any difficulties there between the different nationalities? C: Sometimes, yah. Sometimes they’d be pretty nasty clashes. A: Remember any stories or incidents? C: Not particularly, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t often, but you know, once in a while, yup. 15 �A: Now did you, did you work with Cambodian folks (C: Yup) there? And did some of those people end up in Lowell? C: Yah. Like you know, if I’m talking to somebody whose, who I think could fit the age range, if I meet somebody, I’ll ask them. “So what camp were you in?” And sometimes it will be that one. Yah, it’s kind of cool. A: How long did you end up staying there? C: Two years. I do everything for two years I think. [Laughs] I like to start things up. I did. I’ve been in my job for twenty. So yah. A: Maybe we should go back a little bit more and talk about your transition from IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] to the School Department. How did that come about? C: If memory serves me, which sometimes it doesn’t, I believe Ann O’Donnell approached me. A: Don Pearson? C: Ann O’Donnell. A: Oh I’m sorry, Ann O’Donnell. C: She was the head of the bilingual program. A: Okay. C: For a very long time. And I believe she approached me and asked me if I’d be interested. They had this position. I think they got federal funds for it or something. A: It was a new position? C: Yup, to oversee development of a Southeast Asian curriculum. So yup. A: Tell us all about that. C: So in my role I oversaw, I had three curriculum developers, one Lao, one Khmer, and one Vietnamese. And so our job was to try to develop a, you know, native language curriculum that they could use in the schools, and that was a huge lift, because you know, we’re talking K-12. I mean it was a huge lift. So we mostly focused on literacy, and then would you know as we could develop materials, you know, in other content areas. But we’d produce our own books and stuff like that, yup. And I believe, and you guys would know maybe the timeline. So there was a time when there was going to be a shift away from the Indochinese Foundation to splitting off the groups. When you talk to Hai he’ll know. 16 �A: Okay. So like when the CMAA [Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association] was formed? C: Yah! A: Yah, so the CMAA [Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association] was formed in 84. C: Yup. A: And I don’t know. Was there a Lao and Vietnamese? C: There, well there was an effort. (A: Okay) It didn’t take hold, but there was an effort to do that, yah. A: Okay. So the CMAA was really the only group that kind of had legs? C: It ended up, yup, that I recall. Yup. K: Do you keep in touch with anyone you worked with, or while working for, at the IRF? C: Not really keep in touch. I, you know, I would see people out in the community and you know, a couple of families I keep in touch with that I served, but I don’t keep in touch with staff as much. In fact it’s funny one of the families that I for whatever reason just became really close with, a Lao family, their daughter now has children my middle son’s age and they’re best friends. K: Oh. C: So she, so you know when she came to the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] she was like yay big, and now she’s mom to two kids and so it’s yah, it’s great. K: What about the family you sponsored? C: I have no idea. [Unclear], I have no idea. You know my life took a, you know, a left turn. You know, when you have kids everything, everything changes. So you know, I became much less involved in the community. I took this job up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So I became sort of much less connected here. A: Yah. So you went from IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] to the school department and then (--) C: Then to Middlesex. 17 �A: And then to Middlesex. And how did you get connected up with Middlesex if you recall? C: Maybe Molly Sheehy? A: Okay. C: Yah, I think that’s probably likely. A: Okay. And what did you do at (--) You talked a little bit about it already, but. C: So you know, in setting up the Lowell Campus they were mindful, right that they wanted to serve the Southeast Asian population. So we set up this um, and they had a Gateway City’s Grant I believe to do that. So myself and a Hispanic community Leader, Peki Wilson, who was at the time really well regarded in the Latino community (--) A: How do you spell the first name? C: Peki, P E K I was her nickname. Griselda was her first name. A: Raselda? C: Griselda. A: Griselda. Okay. C: She was Cuban, but very well regarded in the Hispanic community. So she and I were sort of the two key staff at the Resource Center which operated out of Wannalancit at the time, because we started at Wannalancit right? A: Yah. C: And so our job really was to provide sort of counseling so to speak to you know, kids who were interested in maybe attending Middlesex, and while they were at the college providing a lot of bicultural support for them. You know, doing special events with them and just being there as a listening ear. A: Were there a lot of students coming to Middlesex when, at the beginning essentially? C: Well I think because of our outreach we started really to get kids you know aware of the college and starting to come into the college. A: How did you do the outreach? Do you recall? 18 �C: Well by that time I had, you know, because of my work at the Foundation I had a pretty good network. So that wasn’t a huge lift. You know, without that I don’t know what I would have done, but yah. A: So who were some of the community leaders from the different refugee communities at that time? C: So the Lao I would say Kumson Silavong. I think he’s passed recently. Sommanee Bounphasaysone, she’s actually a really good friend of mine. Who else in the Lao community? That’s what I recall, and Sommanee worked for the DCF ultimately. A: So many Lao folks or? C: Sommanee is her name, sorry. [Laughs] A: [Laughs] I’m going deaf anyways, so. C: I know you and me both. So in the Cambodian community at the time it was Michael Ben Ho (A: Umhm), great man. A: Yah, he just passed away as well. C: I know. Narin Sao. (A: Umhm) You probably know them all. I’m trying to think who else. Those are the two that come to mind really. A: Okay. Is Narin still around? C: Yup. A: Okay. C: Yah, he lives in Chelmsford but he’s around. He’s a great guy, great guy. A: Any politicians that stood out either kind of pro refugee, or not so pro? C: Like if you tick check off names I could say “Oh yah, I know,” but (--) A: One of the guys over the years, a couple of the guys that could be perceived as not being super friendly would be Tarsy Poulios. [Both same name at same time]. C: Tarsy Poulios, right, it just all of a sudden came back to me! Yah, he was like the Donald Trump of Lowell. So I’d say yah. A: Do you remember any interactions with any of your jobs with him? C: No. 19 �A: Okay. Anybody on the pro side? C: I’m sure there were, because again we had, you know, we had a fair amount of (--) Oh God I’m just remember on the school board, Katherine Stoklosa. She blamed me for all of the refugees coming to the city. A: How so? C: At the school committee meeting. A: Oh really? C: Yah. A: And so she didn’t think it was a good idea? C: Oh no! We should stop those people from coming, yup. I mean a lot of people were (--) It’s you know, it’s fear you know the unknown. Right, it’s so common, we don’t learn. A: Good. K: Do you see any similarities in your job today with working with the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation] C: No. I wish I did. [Laughs] No, I’m (--) A: We won’t leave that on the record. C: Yah! I’m pretty far removed from feeling like I have an impact on people’s lives, but that’s okay. K: He kind of skips this question, but what was the most interesting or enjoyable part of your job? C: Oh the people. Oh God yah. Just really, just delightful people, and some of them could be like royal pains in the asses, but you know. Hai’s father worked for me, and a wonderful, wonderful man. And he was very set in his ways. So supervising him was a challenge, but you know, wonderful, wonderful man. And so just really wonderful people and I learned a lot. A: Any final thoughts about your time working for the IRF [Indochinese Refugee Foundation]? 20 �C: No, just that you know, I want to thank Jackie’s husband. [Laughs] Really it was a life changer for me, that opportunity, and Hai. It really was. I mean they took a risk with me, because I was (--) How old was I? I was young, really and you know, I guess the good thing for me was nobody had that experience because it was so new. So they took a chance with me and it was great. A: Yah, you said Jackie’s husband? C: He’s the one that recommended me for the job. A: Jackie Moloney’s husband? C: Yup. A: Oh, okay, and how did you know him? C: I worked with him at CETA, the (--) Yup, Ed. A: Yah, okay. What did he do at CETA? C: He was one of the managers. So there was Ed and Henry Przydzial, and yah. But yah, he just pulled me aside and said, “Hey, Jackie’s leaving this job. I think you should go for it.” Now Jackie is brilliant. And going in trying to fill her shoes, I had to get over that one right away. Yup, she’s brilliant. A: How so? C: I don’t know she just is. A: But I mean how did you feel that you (--) Was there a learning curve from what Jackie had done? C: I mean I would have, if I tried to sort of emulate what she did, or be who she was I would have failed. So I had to just find my own way in the job and yah. And I was successful, but I’m just saying you know, yah. A: Any final thoughts about your time working here in the city. C: No, I mean I miss it. I loved doing that kind of work. My work is like I said, very removed. You know, I have a federally funded job where I lead a multi-million dollar grant, blah, blah, blah. So it’s a great job and but I loved doing community work. Someday in my retirement. A: Yah, why not? C: Yah. 21 �A: Great. K: I think that’s it, right? C: Thank you so much. K: Thank you. A: Thank you. K: Yah, this is great. C: So are you a student at UMass? K: Yah, I’m a student. I’m a sophomore. C: What are you studying? Interview ends jw 22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA. Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource University of Massachusetts Lowell Relation A related resource The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carol Keirstead oral history interview transcript, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Adoption Adoptive parents Community organization English language--Study and teaching Lowell (Mass.) Nonprofit organizations Occupational training Political refugees Refugee camps Refugee families Refugee issues Refugees--Southeast Asia Refugees--United States Social service Unemployed--Services for Oral history Description An account of the resource The transcript of an oral history with Carol Keirstead on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the IRF, sponsoring a family, and adopting a child from Cambodia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Keirstead, Carol Connerty, Kale Ali, Mehmed Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available University of Massachusetts Lowell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 22 p., 21.5 x 28 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context uml4_16.02_i002 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell, Massachusetts 2010-2019 BASF Systems Corporation Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association Cambodians Centralville Daley Middle School Documents International Institute of New England Laotians Lowell Public Schools Moore Street School Philippine Refugee Processing Center The Grove Vietnamese Wang Laboratories https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/37070/archive/files/eee5ff4988535bdb08da34aa994742d0.MP3?Expires=1792627200&Signature=pUCOv22y7A-v9JOgRCJb2rOGavc3%7EpzUw8KtlXNbuRdW0shEjwCMUl4AQP3yflhYWuoWqbUjR74JYtOL-piwbDHAdlpvZsjPhaK23Vxkh2mXkBDdFKBflfIM7nUSCxZXmFXzmSZZ7u8qafTI77og75tXV4Dm13Y5qqhTq1FHGbQCIe0je09ej9R5Jq55Ihy%7ENkqdjO3MCOsAkGDCeUicj8ZxRVZ6PlLgwkvdseIUy4wOLjsVIR-XertCjhGJGHet4ydkfa2OhfAj2AvRSnkVeZQBAFxuR%7EjgyU7xBjfOpLd-MZyagJ9O1jTCu%7Ekk4QDw8pBrnJFu4hXwkPCMOawN3Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM acd40c7986f27babb1bd31886abcd5b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016. UML 4. Center for Lowell History, University of Massachusetts Lowell, Lowell, MA. Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with former staff and board members of the Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc., an organization that helped resettle Southeast Asian refugees in the greater Lowell, Massachusetts area during the 1980s. Oral histories were conducted with Jacqueline (Fidler) Moloney, Carol Keirstead, Elise Martin, Hai Pho, and Lan Pho. <br /><br />View the collection finding aid for more information, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>.<br /><br />The entire collection is accessible on this site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource University of Massachusetts Lowell Relation A related resource The collection finding aid, <a href="https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://libguides.uml.edu/uml4</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carol Keirstead oral history interview audio recording, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Adoption Adoptive parents Community organization English language--Study and teaching Lowell (Mass.) Nonprofit organizations Occupational training Political refugees Refugee camps Refugee families Refugee issues Refugees--Southeast Asia Refugees--United States Social service Unemployed--Services for Oral history Description An account of the resource The audio recording of an oral history with Carol Keirstead on her experiences working with Southeast Asian refugees and as an Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. staff member. Other topics discussed include her work after she left the IRF, sponsoring a family, and adopting a child from Cambodia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Keirstead, Carol Connerty, Kale Ali, Mehmed Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Indochinese Refugees Foundation, Inc. Oral Histories, 2016 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available University of Massachusetts Lowell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource UMass Lowell Library makes this material available for private, educational, and research use. It is the responsibility of the user to secure any needed permissions from rightsholders, for uses such as commercial reproductions of copyrighted works. Contact host institution for more information.  Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 1 audio recording; 00:45:44 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context uml4_16.02_i001 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lowell, Massachusetts 2010-2019 BASF Systems Corporation Cambodian Mutual Assistance Association Cambodians Centralville International Institute of New England Laotians Lowell Public Schools Moore Street School Philippine Refugee Processing Center Sound recordings The Grove Vietnamese Wang Laboratories